Another way to think about recruiting
by charlespig on Feb 12, 2012 3:40 PM EST
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Print(Disclaimer: Based on the many hated responses, I am adding this disclaimer. The following has absolutely NO intention of criticizing the Purdue coaching staff for their hard work on recruiting. I'm pleased with the 2012 and 2013 recruits we have. It is not meant to suggest overhauling the existing recruiting strategy but a mere additional thought on how we might perhaps improve our recruiting to discover potential gem by spending a small amount of time to look at potentially undervalued assets. The reference to Lin is only meant to illustrate as an example of an undervalued asset and how to find him, and the reference to his dad is meant more as a "fun fact.")
After the Plumlees, Gary Harris, Gordon Heyward and G-Rob III, I just read that the Linsanity Jeremy Lin's dad studied at Purdue (computer engineering) and was a huge basketball fan. If we had Lin back then (2006-10) with JJ and Smooge, can we say N.C.?
Which gets to my other point of recruiting - finding undervalued assets. Because of basketball Asian profil-Lin, Lin didn't even get a D1 scholarship despite being a first-team All-State, yet he managed to drop 30 points on UConn and 38 points on the Lakers. Had we offered him a scholarship, I'm sure he'd die to come.
Now obviously hindsight is 20/20. Anyone who claimed to have foreseen Lin's greatness is lying. But as I've been saying all along, if we can't compete with the big boys (Duke, O$U, UK and etc.) on "brand names", we need to get good players a different way. Call it the Moneyball way or the Buffett way (i.e. find undervalued assets). Back in the old days, black players were discriminated. Imagine a white-only team, how many potential talent you are leaving out there? Imagine an NBA team never bother to look at any foreign-born players, and they will just be handicapping themselves from the Nowitzki or Gasol or Yao or Ginobili.
So while obviously focusing on in-state recruiting, I'd think it may be worthwhile to look into areas of untapped potential. Some schools are already trying to get African kids or Latin American kids who are athletic but haven't played much basketball to play (think Thabeet or Perea), so why not go further? Think outside the box! You don't even need a lot of resources. Just look at first-team all-state for the 50-states and look for those who has a funny last name or has no major scholarships. I expect less than 10 players. Do some research and background check, and maybe you'll find a potential gem.
Stuff in the FanPosts is entirely at the discretion of those that post them. They do not represent the views of Hammer & Rails, SBNation, or Purdue University in any way.
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you are reaching so hard it’s pathetic. Do you think when the coaching staff is recruiting, they go and look through every person who’s received a doctorate from Purdue and see if they have a son who’s a basketball player? Calling Lin’s father a “Purdue parent” is absurd
My apology
…to mislead you to focus on the first (short) paragraph about Lin and his dad but totally miss the three (long) paragraphs about undervalued asset.
You are reaching with an absurd example of looking through every person who’s received a Purdue doctorate. I have stated in the original posts that I’d propose looking through all the first-team all-state players who are under-represented (e.g. no recruit ranking, maybe a funny minority last name, no major scholly). That should be a short list and this is sth a grad assistant can do filtering only the one or two guys for the coaching staff to take a serious look.
oh please
This kid had a chance to go to harvard. I’m sure his academic priorities were more important that basketball. His economics degree was likely more important to him than playing basketball. Youre grasping at straws for recruiting.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/basketball/recruiting/commitments/2006/harvard-131
0 star recruit.
he had interest from Cornell, Princeton, Stanford, and UC berkley. That in itself tells me the kid was applying to academic powerhouse.
Stop trying so hard to rip on purdue recruiting.
Pls don't jump to conclusion
1. I wasn’t trying to rip Purdue recruiting. My intention is to share my thought on how we might improve recruiting by thinking outside the box and doing things unconventionally.
2. If you read Lin’s interview, his top choices were Stanford and UCLA, and both only offered him a spot to walk-on. Harvard was actually his last choice. Get the causality right – the fact he has interest from Cornell, Princeton and Harvard is NOT b/c he valued academics most, but it is b/c those are the only schools who guaranteed a spot for him.
3. 0-star recruit precisely speaks my point about undervalued asset. Which recruiting agency in the right mind would go watch an Asian ball? That’s what all the college coaches and all the professional GMs miss!
you changed the title of your article to "Another way to think about recruiting"
from, “oops purdue misses out on another recruit” (or something along that line).
1.That changes the language of your fanpost. Which initially had the flavor of ripping on Purdue recruiting.
2. Fine, if athletics was his number 1 priority he probably shouldnt have applied to some of the best academic schools… ON THIS PLANET. There’s a lot of division 1 programs that probably would have accepted him and started him and yet he picked the one that can’t give him a scholarship and is the number 1 unanimous academic school in the world for the last decade. Hell, at he could have applied to VCU and technically gotten more TV exposure than then Crimson.
3. I understand your point. But somewhere along the line he was not only a non ranked recruit, but undrafted out of college. So not only did Rivals miss it, so did Stanford, Princeton, UC berkley, Cornell, and a large portion of the NBA. So understanding Painter isn’t a college bball deity what exactly do you expect him to do with a limited number of scholarships? Go for players that no one (or not many) evidently thought was valuable. Then we’d be screaming on here about how painter is taking too much risks. Jeremy Lin’s Purdue connection is a moot point. The Kid was born in LA, CA, and grew up in California. When was the last recruit Purdue had out of California?
by PurdueEnginerd on Feb 12, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Rebuttal
1. Please. No need to take things too seriously. If a Purdue fan laments about ACL curse, it isn’t necessarily a rip on the poor Purdue athletic trainers.
2. He obviously values academic (most Asian families do), which actually also helps Purdue (if we were recruiting him) given our academic status.
3.
Go for players that no one (or not many) evidently thought was valuable
Again, ask the question, why no one evaluates him? If there were Rivals back in the 50s, I am sure Oscar Robertson wouldn’t be evaluated either! Your argument is like the Efficient Market Theorist who, upon seeing a dollar bill dropped on the floor concluded that he shouldn’t picked it up b/c it should have been picked up already and he should never see one.
I agree that you can’t look at EVERY un-evaluated player. It’ll take too much time and that’s not what I am prposing. But is it too much to ask for to look at un-evaluated player who turns out to be a first-team all-state? Not to mention a big state like CA?
And since you are so much into rating, 48 Rivals user gave him an average 4.62; as a comparison, Derek Willis got 4.09 from 93 users. Now of course, user rating may be poor standard and less reliable than professional, but just saying.
4.
When was the last recruit Purdue had out of California?
By that logic, we should never try anything new. Look, if you are competing to get a 5-star kid from CA, our chance is low. But if we are trying to get a kid who is (wrongly) a 0-star and whose family values academics, and whose father went to Purdue, I like our chances!
he obviously wasn’t a 0 star recruit and I don’t think you can assume he was only interested in academics.
he was a 0 star.
We worship the amount of starts and ranking future recruits have… and when someone with a lot of talent gets through it, were supposed to disregard it? charlespig is reaching
Harvard doesnt give athletic scholarships. FYI…
by PurdueEnginerd on Feb 12, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Ask the question, why is he a 0-star?
I understand the worship of the star and ranking system. If they are valued properly, sure, they mean something, and a 5-star is better than a 4-star, who is better than a 3-star (at least on average).
My main point is about looking at the untapped potential. Does a person get a 0-star b/c he just sucks, or is it because no one bothers to evaluate him? And that precisely what I am arguing for – some guys are wrongly rated a 0-star simply b/c he is Asian, and if we actually do a proper evaluation and scoop him up, that’s precisely the Moneyball winning formula!
According to Dana O’Neil of ESPN, “… Lin was the runaway choice for player of the year by virtually every California publication.” He was named first-team All-State and Northern California Division II Player of the Year.
Tell me this describes a 0-star player.
he actually probably wasn’t evaluated at all. make’s no sense that they’d rate anybody below 3 stars.
follow up: there is no such thing as 0 stars, only 1-5 and he wasn’t ranked at all. There is absolutely no way that he was not a 1 star at the very least
If you look at his ranking page:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/basketball/recruiting/player-Jeremy-Lin-41548
Under stars there are none highlighted. So that either means he wasn’t evaluated as charlespig suggests or that he is a “zero star” athlete based on rivals recruiting rankings.
But by this logic, if his father was CompSci
…we could say schools with strong CompSci programs should’ve scrambled to get Jeremy Lin to go to their school, with the additional reward that he’d be the go-to guy on the basketball team.
And he’d have been low on the depth chart behind Kramer and Grant.
I agree with the thought but you can only think outside the box so far before getting lost. Obviously there are good contrarian rules and I think the coaching staff is aware of that.
I see you are stating Jeremy Lin as a general example of having the resources and patience to look through the play of 100 recruits that have a 2% chance of blowing up and being able to research that? And play the numbers that way?
And how would we get a Billy Beane style person if we can’t pay them that sort of money or give them the prestige?
by Beavis Beefcake on Feb 12, 2012 4:12 PM EST reply actions
You don't need a Billy Beane style person
Just pay a grad assistant to plow through some minorities whom the recruiting agency doesn’t bother to look at or evaluate. As I’ve stated, you can limit your search greatly by looking only at players who are first-team all-state and who, as PurdueEngineerd loudly complained, “A 0-star.”
If a first-team all-state (and a big state like CA nonetheless!) is a 0-star, I say he deserves to be taken a look and a potential gem.
True. I think you're right, there are still inequalities
With the title change, rereading what you said makes a lot of sense. And yeah, a grad assistant would be willing to work to make a name for himself.
I’d be worried about what sort of resources could be spent to see someone in a state that far away, though. Recruiting isn’t a Turing Machine sort of thing and again I think you understand that and are looking for a few good quick rules (e.g. skills underrated in basketball like walking was in baseball.) Any small changes that would help theoretical methods or even searches for players might not work in practice—though I think you’re right that they must be out there.
Question is, how much of this is already developed? I think there was an ESPN article on Shane Battier about this sort of thing, how he seemed to just improve teams.
And as you say below, tough to hang onto these guys if they blow up—and tough luck if they don’t.
by Beavis Beefcake on Feb 12, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed it isn't easy and probably less straight-forward than I describe
And sure, may be at the end of the day the reward may not justify the work. But if we don’t even open ourselves to the possibilities, we are just handicapping ourselves. And what I proposed (first-team all-state with no recruiting rating) shouldn’t take a lot of time.
how much of this is already developed?
Good question. Kobe said after Lin torched Lakers 38 points, "Players don’t usually come out of nowhere. If you go back and take a look, his skill level was probably there but no one ever noticed."
Precisely b/c no one else bother to notice, that’s where the gems are. If it is so obvious, he would have already signed with O$U or UK. But I think we should have no problem hanging on to these guys – they are so undervalued that the New York Yankees don’t bother looking at.
yeah...
Purdue Engineerd arguments are pretty invalid..
Geez, ok, I changed the subject of the post to better reflect the content
Sorry I am not aware that ppl can be so sensitive! Chill! I am not knocking Purdue or anything. I love the school and I am just proposing ways that might help. I know it isn’t conventional and it may sound absurd on the surface. But if anything I get from my Purdue engineering education it is that a lot of innovation started out as a crazy idea and so you should never be afraid to speak out.
I am merely using Jeremy Lin (and the coincidence that his dad was a Purdue student) to make a point about undervalued players. I spent one short paragraph describing Lin and his dad, and three long paragraphs to discuss undervalued assets. If you have to focus on that one short paragraph and calling it a reach then you are totally missing the point.
I don’t mind criticism. But let’s focus on the “meat” of my argument, can you? There may be things I overlook or things that I just dunno about high school bball (heck, I am no OldBoiler52). It may be that we’ve already been looking at Asian ballers or that my suggestion is just not practical. Tell me, that’s great, I’ll be happy to know. But no need to be so sensitive.
Painter
Has answer the heart of your post . When asked why he didn’t open up his recruiting in other states he said because Indiana has the best talent for what we do. But he does recruit out side the state. As for international they use a scouting service and have recruited some just haven’t signed any . Unless count Sandi there was a reason he went to lalu.
Definitely in-state kids are the #1 priority
I’ve stated it in the original post:
obviously focusing on in-state recruiting
I am not suggesting recruiting out-of-state – there’s still a lot of competition and we’ve learned from Willis that even if we land a gem it can still be tough to hang on.
I am not necessarily suggesting international per se, though I am not excluding it. My main point is about under-evaluated players, international or domestic, Asian ballers like Lin who is a first-team all-state but get no recruiting agency evaluation. As Kobe says, “Players don’t usually come out of nowhere. If you go back and take a look, his skill level was probably there but no one ever noticed.”
And what I am saying is, why does he go unnoticed? Maybe it’s a legit reason (say poor academics, poor relationships with teammates, getting into legal troubles, refusing to listen to coaches), but if it’s sth absurd (b/c he’s Asian), then maybe there is a gem worth looking into. Again, this shouldn’t take a lot of time. Just filter out all the first-team all-state players who have no recruiting ranking. It should be a short list, no?
If we had Lin back then (2006-10) with JJ and Smooge, can we say N.C.?
No because Hummel going down in 2009-10 still keeps us from the N.C. regardless.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
But what if Lin was driving to the basket
Or Hummel saw Lin open and kicked it out instead of driving?
Yeah, I’m whatif trolling. No way to know how close the ACL was to snapping.
We maybe can’t say but we can dream :)
by Beavis Beefcake on Feb 12, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Technically
We wouldn’t have had that scholarship to sign one of Hummel, Martin, Moore, or JJ. Since Hummel was the lowest ranked…
by OldSchoolStyle on Feb 12, 2012 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't we originally sign Jeff Robinson (who then went to Xavier) for the Class of 2007?
He was academically ineligible, although I’ve also read someone claiming Painter forcing Robinson out after he averaged only 3 pts his senior year.
Sorry you are right
It was Nemanja Calasan coming in as a JUCO with the Baby Boilers.
Coaches and assistants only have so much time
And money. The odds of finding a Jeremy Lin by ‘looking for players with funny names’ are absurdly low.
How much time does it take?
If you just look at first-team All-State players who don’t have a recruit ranking, the pool limits itself so much that a grad assistant can easily come up with a list in a day. So maybe with a list of 10 or fewer players, do a little more research to try to understand why he isn’t even rated, how hard is that?
It really sounds like you're trying to rip Painter's recruiting.
You’re basically saying “since we can’t get the big boys, let’s do something else”. Who says we won’t get the big boys? Our program wasn’t based on Gary Harris…it seems like you’re still whining about that.
by Jackson Brunner on Feb 12, 2012 9:16 PM EST reply actions
Dude....he's not whining.
Everyone around here always says “what should we do different, then?” whenever someone complains about recruiting. So, what does charles do? He comes up with a suggestion and suddenly he’s ripping on Painter? Gimme a break.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 12, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
He's basically saying we can't get top talent.
by Jackson Brunner on Feb 12, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
OMG, unbelievable
How on earth is Jeremy Lin not a top talent? He is an first-team All-State in California and “the runaway choice for player of the year by virtually every California publication.” He is not EVALUATED to be a top talent b/c of Asian profiling, but if you look at his stat he could be worthy of consideration. I am saying we can get top talent who by some misadventures weren’t CONSIDERED top talent (e.g. Drew Brees won Texas 5A champ but wasn’t EVALUATED to be a top talent).
Just because you have inferior complexity doesn’t mean everyone is trying to rip you or your team. Sometimes people are just trying to offer a kind suggestion. If you don’t think the suggestion is good, point out the flaw in the suggestion itself. For example, someone has pointed out that the coaches won’t have the time to go over so many players, which is a legitimate concern. I’ve explained that by saying a grad assistant can easily filter out a ton of nonsense if he simply looks at players who made first-team all-state but without a recruiting rating.
For the record, I also said Purdue might consider pressure more, like Minnesota-kind of full-court press. That doesn’t mean I am ripping Painter’s defense. That doesn’t mean I am ripping our team. It’s just a mere suggestion, OK?
Just because he is the player of the year in a state
Does not mean he is a great talent. There are plenty of players who win those awards and do nothing. The level of competition matters more than the award. E’twaun wasn’t player of the year in his highschool class, but he was a far better recruit and player than many players who won their respective player of the year awards in their state that year.
All state’s basketball scenes are not created equal. The midwest and east coast turn out the best recruits year in and year out. Stick with recruiting them, not random players winning awards in states with poor competition.
For the record, not saying he isn't.
Just one exception to tons of these same kind of players going on to do nothing does not mean the recruiting staff should spend time actively recruiting these kinds of players.
Besides, I am very excited at the several highly regarded recruits we have coming in. Bryson and Stephens were great gets and will probably be incredible players at Purdue.
He is an first-team All-State in California and "the runaway choice for player of the year by virtually every California publication."
Let it be noted the 2009-10 Gatorade Indiana Player of the Year was Travis Carroll.
Also, since when has Purdue recruited out of California?
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 12, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
By that we shouldn't even recruit Jacob Lawson
since when has Purdue recruited out of California?
Since when has Purdue recruited out of North Carolina?
Let it be noted the 2009-10 Gatorade Indiana Player of the Year was Travis Carroll.
What does that supposed to mean? You say TC’s high school stat don’t warrant him to receive an offer?
Since when has Purdue recruited out of North Carolina?
Lawson was actually ranked, three star recruit with awareness from a variety of programs. You’re stretching this Lin fiasco of a post very, very badly. Lin wasn’t ranked in part because there was no major awareness of him from collegiate programs recruiting him. The idea that a coach in Indiana would decide to check out an unranked player in California he’d have no business of hearing of makes next to no sense. Lawson at least had some national recognition, hence why he was being recruited everywhere from the Big 10 to the ACC to the SEC and Big East…
What does that supposed to mean? You say TC’s high school stat don’t warrant him to receive an offer?
My point is you tried basically saying ‘well since Lin was up for player of the year awards all these coaches should have been all over this guy.’ My point with Carroll is a player winning a POTY award in high school doesn’t automatically mean they’ll be a good college player.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
And please
Read carefully. I never say we can’t get top talent. The farthest I said is IF we can’t compete on BRAND NAME. Tell me how that is ripping? Are you trying to tell me that the Purdue brand name is a lot more attractive than Duke and Kentucky?
if we can’t compete with the big boys (Duke, O$U, UK and etc.) on “brand names”
I am not suggesting to get WORSE talent. I am suggesting to get TOP talent who weren’t EVALUATED properly. In an efficient market, you shouldn’t expect to find one, but Jeremy Lin has proven that it is not an efficient market.
Jeremy Lin and Jimmer Fredette are outliers not the norm
for every one that the market misses they get 50 right. It doesn’t make it an inefficient market when they miss a few out of thousands annually.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
by JustAJ on Feb 12, 2012 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Efficient, or optimally efficient?
But I think we’re tripping over terminology. I think for the most part the market is efficient but there are a few holes left to exploit and they’re non-obvious.
A market can be relatively efficient but still harbor inefficiencies.
by Beavis Beefcake on Feb 12, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Sure they aren't the norm, but I never suggest to spend A LOT of time on them
Just a quick look-up. Get a list of 5-10 names of first-team all-state with no rankings. Understand why. How much does it hurt?
but then you have to spend resources on getting a gauge of their talent
it is notoriously known that if I donated $100 today to the Purdue basketball team, I would triple their recruiting budget. How is Matt Painter supposed to get out to California to check out an uncelebrated All-State candidate and afford to rent a car to drive over to Illinois to check out a Wolves game the next weekend? It is spending time and money on searching for a needle in a haystack when you have a needle factory out your back door (Indiana and Illinois).
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
by JustAJ on Feb 13, 2012 8:00 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Nice try, TheBox, but I'm a Purdue sophomore that grew up in a Boilermaker family.
I’m sick and tired of Purdue fans assuming the worst. It seems to happen every day on H&R, even after good things happen.
by Jackson Brunner on Feb 13, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Why
Do they do it to themselves . Out of the 345 schools we have to be in the top 10 % most of the time. However with Charles he just has to much Brain . Lucky for me thats not a problem .
Lin was nowhere near a big boy.
I think if Painter recruited a Lin now instead of a Hummel, JJ or Smooge everyone would be attacking his recruiting and ripping it to shreds.
Lin wasn’t a big recruit, he wasn’t even a mid level or smaller recruit…
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 12, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Unless your idea of fixing the program is recruiting unranked recruits from California when we’re a collegiate program in Indiana…
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 12, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
One last thing
There’s a reason no one made this statement when Lin was in college or when he spent his entire first year in the NBA playing a few minutes here and there for Golden State before getting waived…hell, he was about to get waived in New York before his 25 point game. Right now Lin is hype and a feel good story, give him a few weeks or so to see wherehe stabilizes before claiming he’s the second coming or anything.
To try to complain (that’s what your post comes off as) about an unranked recruit from Cali that you probably never watched in college or heard of his first year in the pros, then after a couple games he’s excelled in (thanks to injuries to starters) try to stretch him to Purdue because he had a parent attend there academically makes literally no sense.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 12, 2012 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
I mentioned Lin b/c he fits my description of undervalued asset; his dad is a mere mention
I am sorry you interpret it as a complaint when only one paragraph mentions Lin and his dad but three paragraphs talk about undervalued asset.
I dunno how Lin will play out as a pro. But even looking at his college stat, it isn’t too shabby to drop 30 points on UConn and avg sth like 16.4 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 2.4 steals and 1.1 blocks (sure, it’s only Ivy-League).
A small recruit out of California simply isn’t going to get the attention from a school in Indiana that already has a full board of recruits, most of which from the area or at least having some national recognition.
If Lin’s dad didn’t attend Purdue you would have not made this post.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
Uhhhh.....
A small recruit out of California simply isn’t going to get the attention from a school in Indiana that already has a full board of recruits, most of which from the area or at least having some national recognition.
That’s his point! That’s what makes him undervalued! Jesus Christ, people need to a)lighten up and b)read the whole post before responding. This isn’t about Painter or Painter’s recruiting or Purdue’s brand or Lin’s dad or even Lin. So everyone can stop talking about all that, it’s not relevant to the post.
What it is is a honest, thought provoking insight on the recruiting process and it’s flaws.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 13, 2012 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
His post was implying Purdue could have gotten Lin and it’d make them better. He even had to slide in the disclaimer to attempt to break away from what his post came off as. If he was simply going on about small recruits then he’d have literally no reason to mention Lin’s dad going to Purdue or start a ‘what-if Lin came to Purdue’ scenario. None whatsoever.
Also, recruits going by unnoticed and then making it big down the line in college or the pros happens. Majority of players don’t turn out, a few do. Happens for football, basketball, etc. There is nothing new and unknown whatsoever there…
This isn’t about…Lin’s dad or even Lin
Then there’s no reason to put this out there: “I just read that the Linsanity Jeremy Lin’s dad studied at Purdue (computer engineering) and was a huge basketball fan. If we had Lin back then (2006-10) with JJ and Smooge, can we say N.C.?”
What it is is a honest, thought provoking insight on the recruiting process and it’s flaws.
I wouldn’t call it flaws, there are an extremely limited number of roster spots on a basketball team that a coach can’t just randomly pick guys that fell through the cracks instead of players they’ve recruited, watched and have a good feel for. Even if coaches did that, the chances of a Lin-esque player would be slim enough that it wouldn’t be beneficial down the line.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
You're vastly over-reaching.
He mentions Lin as an example. Not as a central thesis, or as serious counterfactual. Basically, you’re telling him what his post was about because that’s what you want it to say, while ignoring the disclaimers and actual substance of his comments.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 13, 2012 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
FYI, that disclaimer was just recently added in after the fact and the post title changed.
He basically starts off with “I just read that the Linsanity Jeremy Lin’s dad studied at Purdue (computer engineering) and was a huge basketball fan. If we had Lin back then (2006-10) with JJ and Smooge, can we say N.C.?” then goes on about how Lin went under the cracks for a good majority of his post.
The idea that there are smaller recruits not getting major recognition isn’t foreign and most of those players never amount to much in the long run. That theme is common and well known by everyone here I’d like to think.
I don’t know if you read the original posting he made, but it’s edited enough now that he’s trying to distance himself from what his original post was implying. There is a reason everyone that was responding all took it the exact same way…
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
I read the original, before the comments blew up and the changes started.
The “Purdue Recruiting Miss” part came off as a joke to me. The last two paragraphs do not mention Lin, except to discount the idea that he should have been seen earlier.
He’s editing the post because he wants to actually discuss his real point and not get flamed….not because he’s distancing himself from anything. I’d be willing to bet he’d still stand by the post as originally posted.
There is a reason everyone that was responding all took it the exact same way…
Everyone is not responding in the same way. Those that are offended are being oversensitive, didn’t read the post fully, or have a history of disliking charlespig.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 13, 2012 1:48 AM EST up reply actions
The last two paragraphs still mention Lin and considering the base is built around the Lin remarks, is more or less a continuation intended or not…
Like I said, if he wanted to go on about lesser known recruits, what relevance did his comment about Lins dad being a Purdue grad have? Nothing. Just like his what-if scenario about if Lin had came to Purdue they might have won a NC, considering there was no reason for Lin to be targeted by the coaching staff.
Both of those bits shouldn’t have been stated, at all, if he didn’t want that to be seen as his main point. Even more so because he starts off in that direction and breaks towards what could be seen as just more discussion on Lin with several parallels/connections.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
For the record
I brought up Lin b/c he is what gets me to think about “undervalued asset.” The “what if he came here b/c his dad was a Purdue grad” is just a fantasy thought like my friends and I were discussing one day “what if John Wooden would have come to coach Purdue?”
If that line offends you so much, I am sorry. I thought it was a semi-joke to lead into the topic I want to discuss (undervalued asset), and seeing how it was badly interpreted, I tried to change the subject to better reflect my true intention. I added the disclaimer in the hope that people can realize “undervalued assets” (which I spent 3 paragraphs talking) is my focus, and not be distracted by my original unintelligent semi-joke on Lin’s dad.
You may think smaller recruits not getting major recognition is not a new idea. But I find this subject very fascinating and a lot deeper than you may realize. The MIT Sloan school even have a conference to discuss topics around it (http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=2844). The main theme is, how can we better evaluate talent? What kind of statistics we can look at? What kind of data truly correlate with success? This is what I am interested in, and there are advanced metrics that I thought could help player evaluation.
The main theme is, how can we better evaluate talent? What kind of statistics we can look at? What kind of data truly correlate with success
Reality is, for college basketball at least, there is no perfect solution. Players adapt different to specific systems, coaching styles and coaches in general. Simply watching a player in high school doesn’t even offer a full look into their potential, but considering how many high school basketball teams and athletes there are, it’d be impossible to expect coaching staffs to properly recruit everyone.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 2:25 AM EST up reply actions
throw away Lin, pretend he doesn't exist
I think the point most of us are making is that trying to find the undervalued assets is occurring right now in every program in America. I promise you Matt Painter doesn’t look at Rivals and say… “this is the guys we need to go after.” Painter and company are building their own board and finding the valuable assets based on their measurements in one of the most talent rich areas of the country.
This post makes the assumption that Purdue isn’t actively looking down the road less traveled. When in fact they are almost certainly doing so. It just happens to be that there is rarely shit worth talking about down that road. Painter sees a ton of players outside of the top 100 every year. The reason he takes those players in the top 100 though is because 1. he can get them and 2. they’re just better than the guys that get no recognition.
Searching the trash bin for recruits left on the side of the road and hoping they pan out is how you become a DII school really quickly. Why not take the better players when you know you can have them, instead of taking several lesser gifted players and hope that that 1 in 100 that develops those gifts a little late turns out to be one of your guys.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
by JustAJ on Feb 13, 2012 8:08 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
What????
I agree with everything AJ says here…
Are you sure this isn’t FRIDAY the 13th, never thought I would agree with everything AJ said in a post!
I'm trying to figure out
why AJ is spending so much time on a Purdue blog? Just to ruffle feathers because he has nothing better to do? Commenting on almost every single post as an IU fan with an IU bias can become very abrasive, very quickly.
Buckeye by birth, but BOILERMAKER by the grace of God!
how am I ruffling feathers?
I’m talking basketball, not IU vs. Purdue. It turns out that my job is essentially over for the session and I have nothing to do during the days except sit and get paid.
I am a big college basketball fan and even more so a recruiting/personnel fan (the NFL Draft and Minor League baseball is awesome) and you guys are active over here. There is almost always someone lurking to talk with and a lot of the discussion that goes on here is recruiting. So I’m here taking advantage of SB Nation’s amazing commenting system.
I also spend time on Rivals, BattleRedBlog, CrimsonQuarry and InsideTheHall interacting with individuals. I’m sorry if that offends you, but again it has come to a point in my profession where I have nothing to do during the day (yay government!) and just go to where the conversation is.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
My appologies
While I stand by my point, I wasn’t trying to insinuate that you were in fact ruffling feathers at this very moment on this very thread. What I poorly tried to convey was that it seemed as though you (for the most part… not completely) had a counter opinion and/or disagreed with everyone. I guess I just find it odd that an IU guy spends his time reading a Purdue blog all morning. While outwardly you may not have bad intentions, it can be read that way and commenting the way you do can become abrasive quickly.
Not a personal attack and I’m sorry for wording it so poorly to begin with. I don’t comment 25% of what most people do here, but I guess I could see it getting on my nerves easily, so I assumed it may be the case for many others here. Sorry AJ.
Buckeye by birth, but BOILERMAKER by the grace of God!
ah well my bad
I took it as a bit of an attack. Anyway in full disclosure I also grew up in a Purdue household and have some emotional attachment to Purdue that I don’t like to admit out loud. I also like to argue a lot and this place is always good for a disagreement. Especially in the current tumultuous times where many Purdue fans are rightly and wrongly down on different aspects of the program (thus take shots at IU to make themselves feel better) and looking towards the future (hence all the recruiting talk).
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
Not fixing, but improving
And not about recruiting ANY unranked recruits from California, it is to take a look into unranked recruits WHO HAPPENS TO BE FIRST-TEAM ALL-STATE that do not get an offer, understand the reason (e.g. is it b/c of his funny last name?), and perhaps finding a gem.
Never said to make gem-hunting the priority!
For the N-th time, I’ve been saying
obviously focusing on in-state recruiting
All I am saying is, the market is not absolutely efficient. There may still be undervalued assets. It doesn’t take too much time and effort to filter out a list of maybe 5-10 candidates. They may be worth a look coz they are undervalued assets no one pays attention to.
You still spend the (vast) majority of time watching in-state guys like Wideman.
Even bringing up Lin is stupid.
EVERY coach in the country missed on that one. So if thousands of people who are paid to evaluate talent didn’t want him, why blame our coach for doing the same? No point in being mad that Painter isn’t a fortune teller.
by OldSchoolStyle on Feb 12, 2012 10:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Fun fact: Lin was about to get waived in New York as well to avoid having to pay him a guaranteed 800k. However, with injuries they decided to at least give him a shot. He wasn’t faring well until his 25 point game.
That being said, it’s only a matter of time before he stabilizes and comes back down to earth, especially when the rest of the roster starts to become healthy again.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 12, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
If he comes back to earth it still doesn't invalidate any of my argument
His stats at Harvard is what matters as a comparison, not his pro. I mean, you can look at JJ or Smooge’s stat this season as a Celtics, but it doesn’t make them any less of a great college basketball player.
I think it's safe to say you wouldn't have brought Lin up if not for his recently successfuly run
by Boylemaker88 on Feb 13, 2012 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
Absolutely true
His recent successful run made me aware that the market is not efficient, and make me ponder how everyone would have missed him all these years, and most importantly, is there any way we can profit from this inefficient market?
Look, everyone knows they should go after the 4-star and 5-stars. It’s like everyone knows it’s great to have the Top 3 picks in the NBA draft. But you cannot field an entire team of thirteen 4-stars or 5-stars, just like you cannot field an entire NBA team all in the Top 3 picks (unless you are Minnesota). So my question is, where can you find undervalued asset?
If players like Lin were common
Then I would agree with what you are saying. But time and time again 3 star and lower recruits show exactly why they were rated as such. The system is efficient. Could it be more so? Of course. But to say that we have bad luck landing any good recruits (“we need to get good players a different way”) and thus have to scour lists of all-state players is foolish.
The truth is, landing those highly rated recruits like Dawson and Harris is hard. There is a reason UK doesn’t grab every single player they want. Recruiting those big name players is difficult, and you will probably lose out on more than you will ever win. We are landing some great recruits right now though, and I think it is easily believable we will continue to land great players.
If players like Lin were common
Then the recruiting agency would have already found them and rated them.
Sure, if we continue to get every player to be 4-star or 5-star, then forget about everything I said. Last I checked even MSU isn’t fielding an entire team of 4- or 5-star.
Thank you for pointing to me why ppl are so pissed off coz I really have absolutely no idea people can take offense to such an innocent statement (at least from my perspective).
UK brings in 4-5 recruits every year
they lose out on 20.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
His stats at Harvard are against very, very, very different competition than what he’d see in the Big 10 as well. It’s not a fair comparison.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
You think he won't be an upgrade to say Hart or Ryno?
Except for the Big 3, who in our team can drop 30 pts on the 2010 UConn team?
Smith and Hart aren’t even the same recruiting class so I don’t see why you’d make the comparison. Hart’s been hurt nonstop, but Smith is a role player and not expected to have to go for 30. Not to mention an entirely different offensive system, the comparison has no basis. Smith is used as a three point shooter exclusively, so unless you want him shooting double digit three point attempts every game why would he drop 30?
There is absolutely no reason why Lin would have or should have been recruited at Purdue considering everything that was known at that time. You can’t go back and bicker about it now. Might as well go post a fan post on a good number of the NFL team pages calling them out for not drafting Tom Brady in the 5th round while you’re at it…
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
There is no bickering
I never said we should have recruited Lin. I’ve said it repeatedly that anyone who says they can foretell Lin’s greatness is lying. I even changed the title of this post to better reflect my emphasis is on “how to find undervalued asset.”
And yes, I am always fascinated by talent evaluation. I love Moneyball (went to see Michael Lewis in his talk back in 2003 or 2004). I always wonder why teams like the New York Knicks (in the Isiah era) suck so badly despite a huge payroll. Yes, I too wonder why a great QB like Tom Brady can drop to the 6th round while guys like Jamarcus Russell or Tim Couch got to be #1. I wonder why Ryan Leaf can be a legit threat to be #1 pick instead of Peyton Manning. Malcolm Gladwell has several interesting proposals. Wages of Win also shed some light. If you have other good theory let me know.
If you didn’t want the Lin issue being brought up, it would have been best to not include the “what if he came here because his dad was a PU grad…we could of won a NC” scenario.
Yes, I too wonder why a great QB like Tom Brady can drop to the 6th round
Brady’s scouting report labeled him as a system quarterback. Interestingly enough, he’s essentially a system quarterback on crack in the NFl. I think Cassel’s season with the Pats proves a somewhat competent QB will perform there, Brady did find a way to excel though
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
in the Russell, Couch, Leaf questions they can all be answered
with the fact that they were mentally broken. Crazy doesn’t begin to explain their personalities.
Tom Brady wasn’t even the highest rated QB in Ann Arbor. Just another one of those anomalies that slips through the cracks. Again, most professional sports markets and talent evaluation is incredibly efficient, but no market is perfect. It is likely more time and resources would be spent into finding the inefficiencies than exploiting the known efficiencies. Thus making your process inefficient. ESPECIALLY! at a college level where funding and profit is incredibly limited in comparison to the pros.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
yeah he's an anomaly and a fun story
but he won’t last. He’ll be playing in Germany within 2 years.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
In my opinion he could very well still be on a roster in two years…except I don’t see him playing any more than from the bench (best case) or just occasional mop up duty
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Did you even read?
Now obviously hindsight is 20/20. Anyone who claimed to have foreseen Lin’s greatness is lying.
How is that blaming Painter for not being a fortune teller? It is not blaming the coach, but merely suggesting that we might benefit from looking at some untapped areas, so long as it doesn’t take a lot of time (filtering down to a small list is several hours work for a grad assistant) and doesn’t affect our other focus (4 or 5-star in-state kids).
Sorry for the double post
But also what about Kramer? I’m pretty sure he was a 2 star recruit and held no other major offers.
by OldSchoolStyle on Feb 12, 2012 10:53 PM EST reply actions
Kramer was a three star, and was an exception, bot the rule.
As me and many others have said, for every Kramer and Lin, there are tons of players with the same rating who accomplish nothing. You take a huge gamble if you recruit three star or lower players based solely on hoping they go above and beyond.
Kramer was also from Indiana, not California
End of story.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 12, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Don't misundersand
I’m not saying I recommend it. I am just saying that Painter has shown he obviously is willing to recruit whoever he thinks will help him win. Stars don’t matter to him.
by OldSchoolStyle on Feb 12, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but...
Lin was unranked for a reason (had no major attention). Not many people were aware of him so it’s not like you’re going to get a coach from Indiana randomly check out an unranked, unheard of recruit that is all the way across the country.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
by Bryan Steedman on Feb 13, 2012 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
Pacific Takes had a write-up on the Lin situation
Should shed some light as to why he didn’t get a Pac-10 (now Pac 12) offer. More or less he got hurt his junior season which didn’t help his case and he accepted an offer to play at Harvard before his senior year even finished…
One, Lin got injured his junior season before a CIF championship game, and it was apparently serious enough that it kept most Pac-12 schools from sending out an offer. It’s not like schools didn’t know what he did with Palo Alto, but generally you give out offers out by the end of the junior season after you’re sure the guy you’re giving an offer to will pan out at the next level.
The injury caused a lot of hesitation by Pac-12 schools to wait and see what Lin would do his senior season sent him on the road to Harvard, who offered him early and got his acceptance before other Pac-12 schools could send out offers.
So keep in mind that Lin didn’t get an offer from Pac-12 schools because Lin had already made his verbal to Harvard and made it clear he was sticking to it.
Also:
Two of the Pac-12 schools didn’t really end up regretting their decisions. Cal landed Jerome Randle, who ended up becoming the Pac-10 Player of the Year by his senior season and led the Golden Bears to their first conference title in ages. UCLA found an under-the-radar gem in Russell Westbrook, who ended up being a critical cog of a Final Four squad.
Also, one of the players Stanford chose to offer to fill their last spots instead of Lin was Landry Fields.
http://theboilermaker.blogspot.com/
Thank you all!
I think I am done posting here. Thank you all very much, people who like me and people who hate me. No grudges and no hard feelings. I love you all. I love every minute on this site, but apparently it is taking too much time, and my style (just speaking my mind and the guilty pleasure of being abrasive to what I deem as irrational and fallacy) just does not fit well here. Making this a public announcement is my way of forcing myself to stick to my commitment.
I sincerely apologize to everyone who feel I have offended them on this particular page. I really mean no harm. I thought I could use a semi-joke (Lin’s dad Purdue connection) to lead into the topic I want to discuss (how to discover undervalued asset), but apparently that one line of poorly-phrased joke overshadows three paragraphs of content that no amount of disclaimer or subject change can rescue.
Again, I feel grateful to have come to “know” many of you. I absolutely love passionately arguing with many of you here and I can do it all day! However, I think it’s best for me to move on. 363 days and about 2200 comments, I think few are as “hard-working” as me :-) It shows my passion to Purdue and to basketball, but it also shows it’s probably too much, as many have warned me (after all, I am not getting paid, lol). Of course I’ll continue stopping by and reading the latest celebration (or moaning) of our team, and of course OldBoiler52’s recruit updates, but stop posting is probably a good idea for me personally.
With that said, I am forever grateful for the many friends I’ve made here. Your support and tolerance is heartfelt and much appreciated. Thank you wholeheartedly! Boiler up!
P.S.
To the guy who owes me $100 b/c you think we couldn’t win at NW, you luck out ;-)
For one reason or another you certainly have a reputation
I’ve been out of here for a few days, just checked in today and found this monstrosity of a thread. I don’t know what the original post said, but as it stands today I have no problem with it. And as for checking out first-team all state players who aren’t rated by scouting agencies, I think it’s a great idea. I like it as a first option, but it could even be used as a backup measure in the event of “misses” on top recruits. Finding diamonds in the rough like Lin would be extremely difficult, but the method you suggested is an easy no-brainer, and as you said it probably wouldn’t take an assistant more than a day or two to compile a list, and then the remainder of the week perhaps to try and discover why those few players weren’t evaluated.
Hope this message was just written in a moment of being emotional, your stat analysis is top-notch. If you wanna shed your reputation, just make a new screename.
by AAMB Boiler on Feb 13, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
LOL
holy smokes. I’m so glad I started from the bottom of this post and can stop reading.
by boilerbacker31 on Feb 13, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
There was nothing wrong with the original post.
But we just lost one of our best posters because everyone was bashing him so relentlessly, for things he didn’t even say. Think before you post, people! This site has gotten WAY more hostile in the last month or so, and I for one don’t like it.
The way we fix it? Look in the mirror. All of you. We all have some responsibility for it. So please, please, please, think before you post. Consider that there might be good intentions behind the other screenname. Consider that we’re all Purdue fans here (except JustAJ) and that everyone here wants the best for the program. So don’t attack people. Discuss, disagree, argue, but don’t attack. Don’t snap off a response with out thinking. Think about how it will come off before you put it up. We’re all responsible for this, but by the same token we can all fix it.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 13, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
Not trying to start a fight here or anything.... but
Charlespig was often in the middle of those arguments with his tendency to, as he said himself, be abrasive to people who he did not agree with.
This place has indeed become for hostile, and I blame the fans who attack anyone else with a different opinion as well as fans from other teams posting comments. The gamethread from the MSU game is a perfect example. One MSU guy came by and said nothing disrespectful, and a couple people immediately jumped on him and basically acted incredibly immature.
Maybe that is their way of venting over a frustrating season, I don’t know, but to say Charlespig was one of the best posters when he in fact started many of those arguments seems quite ironic to me.
you're an idiot
what would you know. Good lord you’re stupid.
/see what I did there?
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
You're on H&R way too much JustAJ
There I said it. JustAJ is on H&R more than he is on his own IU blog. I’m not sure why you feel the need to post 40 plus times in a day on another teams website. Maybe you’re missing something in your personal life? JustAJ do you think it’s obsessive?
by boilerbacker31 on Feb 14, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
it would be obsessive if I were talking about Purdue constantly
mostly I’m talking about the game in general. And 16 year old boys. Wait, maybe I should rephrase that.
As an aside, I have Crimson Quarry up all day. Unfortunately we’re a less than a third the size of H&R and thus aren’t as active. I also spend a lot of time on IU’s Rivals Premium Board, so it isn’t like I spend my only time here. You should take it as a compliment that I find the discussion balanced enough here to spend time talking with you fine folks.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
I personally appreiate your input.
We obviously have a bias when talking about Purdue. And while you may have a bias in the exact opposite way sometimes, it provides an outside perspective. Also, your recruiting info is very helpful.
pretend the crimson quarry link isn't there
am I really that overly biased
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
I've actually been tempted to get a different username and see if anyone catches on
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
Not all the time, which is why I said "sometimes".
And the moment you would mention something regarding statistics it would be a red flag to me lol.
I don't know...with charlespig going inactive, a "new" stat-rat could be either of them.
Maybe they should share!
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 14, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
I really don't think you're that biased at all
A lot of times I read the post before I read who posted it and some I can tell who posted it before looking and some I can’t. Usually I can’t tell it’s you before looking. I think I like the way you post because I’m pretty sure I’m the exact opposite of you, in that I grew up in an IU house and went to Purdue only for the school. I wasn’t a Purdue fan before going there but now I love their sports (and the disappointment that comes with it). I also respect IU and their sports, but I have fallen away from being an IU fan.
No wonder AJ spends so much time here
I don’t have the time today to go through threads and find out how many contain a compliment for AJ, but it’s gotta be at least half. Recruiting thread? Someone says AJ is great. Preview thread? AJ is is great. Badassery post? AJ is great. Someone attacks AJ for any reason? 5 people jump to his defense. He’s becoming the Sullinger of H&R, no one can speak an ill word of him without being called for a technical foul (i.e. 5 or more replies flaming the poster for daring to speak ill of their oracle). That said, I do enjoy having him over here, for the reasons herby mentioned above. That and he’s a worthy adversary in a battle of trolling wits. (Still laughing about the second-rate institutions distributing Purdue apparel bit).
My point is, if you were getting complimented on a daily basis for your “valuable insight”, “unique perspective”, and “unbiased commentary” etc, wouldn’t you come back for more? Either we should tone it down on the ego massaging daily compliments, or someone should just make a “Shower JustAJ with compliments” FanPost and be done with it. Oh wait, the poster would probably be suspected of sarcasm, and be blasted to smithereens by the aforementioned protectors.
/braces in defensive position for incoming flames
by AAMB Boiler on Feb 14, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
I really don't care if he is an IU fan.
I don’t get upset about sports nearly as much as many people seem to do here. While I hate “IU” as in the basic association of the fans, school, and their teams, I don’t hate the individuals. Something as trivial as being a fan of another college sports team shouldn’t make someone be instantly alienated.
As I have said before, I absolutely hate aO$U. I can confidently say I hate them more than I ever will IU. But one of my roommates is an Ohio State fan, and he is fun as hell to hang out with. I have friends who go to nearly every Big Ten school, and sports just amounts to a little ribbing here and there.
I compliment JustAJ because he quite honestly deserves it. He is a fan of a rival school but gives us plenty of info regarding our own recruits. He contributes a lot on this site in terms of info among other things yet there are plenty who bash him the whole time. Just seems stupid to me.
I think people defend him due to the reason that he gets ripped on here
It seems that a lot of times when people don’t like his opinion they resort to the “what do you know, IU fan,” or “you spend way to much time on a Purdue site for an IU fan” type of response. I think he’s had plenty of opinions that no one agreed with and no one defended him. We also all saw what happened with charles when he got fed up. I think it’s important that people step in if he’s not being taken seriously just because he’s an IU fan. We don’t need to be losing any more valuable posters.
I elbowed charlespig in the face
he got ejected and I got a compliment. I am most definitely the Jared Sullinger of H&R.
/too soon?
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
I don't really see why he left in the first place.
It is the internet, people are gonna disagree with you.
more often than not
no one speaks up when they agree with you, everyone will tell you when you’re wrong.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about.
“Charlespig started it” doesn’t fix anything. LOOK IN THE MIRROR FIRST, PEOPLE!
And you’re seriously going to say that he wasn’t one of the most thoughtful and analytical posters we’ve ver had?
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 14, 2012 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe he was
But being thoughtful and analytical does not excuse attacking other fans, especially other Purdue fans. Having good posts does not excuse the bad ones. A good poster doesn’t call other fans ignorant for having a different opinion, fill up threads with his desire to have ridiculous bets with people, etc.
And you never said anything nasty about another fan in your life?
You had a beef with him, fine. But admit the bias instead of saying good riddance and not looking at what caused him to leave. That’s what concerns me.
I’m not necessarily talking about charles in particular anymore. The fact that a poster, any poster, just left the site in part due to attacks from other users really, really worries me.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 14, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, lay it down.
Worried about this? Worry when someone has cancer, a serious problem or something like that. But this?
by boilerbacker31 on Feb 14, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
This
It is an internet sports blog. You are probably taking it too seriously if one person no longer posting here anymore gets you upset.
So the community here isn't worth preserving to you? Good to know.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 14, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Le sigh.
Look, this all started because you said charlespig left because people attacked him. I mentioned that he attacked others himself and you essentially been ranting and taking things out of context since then.
I understand you are upset. You like charlespig. But if you hadn’t noticed, he was in the center and caused many of the arguments the last few weeks. Him leaving might honestly keep a few arguments from starting. There is still several other posters here who cause issues… Kind of like you saying I don’t care about the community and I believe charlespig started it (both things I never said). Maybe you should take your own advice and just calm down.
Being in the center of arguments doesn't make him at fault for them.
You accused him of attacking people 2 posts ago. Saying he’s always in fights implies that you blame him for starting them. And in your first response to me, you said “he in fact started many of those arguments.” I’m not putting words in your mouth, I’m quoting.
It takes a lot of effort to keep a large board like this civil, especially without a dedicated moderation team or even real moderator powers for anyone. Just look at the other direct response to my last post: he manages to get a no-girlfriend insult, a no-life implication, and a dig about politics all into one post. I don’t want that to become the norm here…I like being able to have a decent discussion on here instead of the crap that happens on ESPN.
So implying that my concerns are invalid and that I care too much seems dismissive of the point I’m trying to make. To me, anyone who argues with the ideas “think before you post” and “the solution starts in the mirror” either just wants to spout off their opinion without regard to others or doesn’t care enough to do even a little self-reflection. I’m not saying either of those things is true with you, but that’s the way it came across to me. Sometimes a strong statement is needed to get a point across.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 15, 2012 1:00 AM EST up reply actions
...Double le sigh
You don’t have to start the argument to be part of it, you just have to drag it out (aka what you are doing right now). By the way, you tried to sum up my entire first response with “Charlespig started it”, which is not at all what I said. Did I say he started the attacks on him in this particular thread? No. He has certainly started them in other threads by calling people ignorant or demanding they have lopsided bets with him. Then until just recently he went on rants against anyone who didn’t have as optimistic a view as him on the current team’s post-season.
Did I ever say i disagreed with your “think before you post” line? No. I think that is an idea people should have already done to begin with; that is something they shouldn’t have to be told to do.
I also already acknowledged that there are posters here who make the community seem bad. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, charlespig was one of the people who attacked those he saw as having “ignorant views”. He had many intelligent posts, which I agreed with you, but he also had many posts that basically worked in the exact opposite direction by attacking fellow Purdue fans.
I mentioned this almost all of this in the first post. If you weren’t so worked up over what charlespig said in his goodbye post and read what I have been saying this whole time, you would understand… well, what I have been saying.
In that case, I strongly disagree with you.
You seem to think charlespig had a history of poor behavior. I do not. Based on that, you felt the need to respond with comments about charlespig and the problems he supposedly causes, which runs directly counter to my point about how we fix the hostility you decry in charles and others, which is that we all need to fix ourselves first.
And lengthy, valid discussions != dragging out arguments
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Feb 15, 2012 8:55 AM EST up reply actions
Seriously...
You guys need to realize that you are arguing on the internet!!! Go back and read through this drivel! Are you teenage girls? Ths site has gone downhill quickly the past few days. perhaps you should all pull a Pig-boy and leave if you can’t emotionally handle commenting on a sports blog!
It's all just too much guys... I can't handle this emotional burden any longer...
I’m warning you! I’m gonna use this butterknife to nick my wrist, then you’ll be sorry! Stop being so mean to me on this totally anonymous comment thread!
I couldn’t resist. I’ve actually had a few chuckles reading this chain. It’s even better if you assign mental pictures of 1980s teenage girls to those involved, and set the scene in a high school hallway. Go ahead, set the scene, re-read this thread. Guarantee you’ll laugh. Make sure you include lots of back and forth head-bobbing, and supporting “gangs” of girls to each side.
by AAMB Boiler on Feb 15, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
I kind of regret doing this.
Because it is frustrating writing the same thing over and over and him just not getting the message. Nothing said here will ever get to me though. It’s the internet, people will call you names and argue. It’s been like that for years.
I'm picturing one of those cheesy pillow fights out of 80's movies...
One that gets out of control between 2 girls that like the same boy…
I seriously think you are not reading anything now.
Charles admitted he did these things in that post. “the guilty pleasure of being abrasive to what I deem as irrational and fallacy.” Seriously man, you have been ranting this whole time about stuff either I said I agreed with or what charlespig said himself.
Boiler Bandsman
How are you ever going to get a girlfriend acting like this? If you want to preserve something, donate all the time you spend on H&R and save the rain forest or pick an animal on the endangered species list or call Al Gore to see what you can do to help with global warming.
by boilerbacker31 on Feb 14, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
Lol i didnt have any beef with him.
I’m just saying it how it I see it. He had many smart, intelligent posts. He also had many posts bashing other posters for having different opinions than him.
He also had many posts that were just giant paragraphs full of attempts at one sided bets.
And to be quite honest, I haven’t said anything nasty here to another fan simply because their opinion on something is different.
If you do decide to come back sooner than you thought
Nobody will point to this and get all SOMEONE WAS WRONG ON THE INTERNET.
I know how it is to need a break from participating in various things and not be sure why—you don’t need reasons here. But you’ll be welcomed back.
by Beavis Beefcake on Feb 13, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
CharlesPig
He wouldn’t back away from a good go maybe he is otherwise detained. I hope he gets back soon we need the smart guy’s . I have seen him post just to get things going . And make you think . That being said if I go away. Wait on me I’ll come back hopefully . I have Major heart problems and can’t get out of the house in bad weather much . But when it warms up I’m outta here ! Just saying maybe Charles has other stuff to deal with .
Know what you mean
I’ve given a (logically) bad reason why I needed to leave a place I liked for a while.
Nobody cared what it was. It was pretty much explain if I felt like it. People were glad to see me back. That felt nice. Yeah, maybe the same thing here. It’s hard to bust in all “HEY GUYS I’M BACK” but I think he’ll be welcomed. As will you if you need a break (or weren’t you already?)
Best of luck with health issues. And yeah, I’ll be outside more as the weather gets better too.
by Beavis Beefcake on Feb 15, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe this sounds dumb
but I am actually quite pleased with our recruiting. I am FAR from a recruiting expert and actually follow it very little (maybe a product of living in Ohio and hearing about OSU Football recruits so much it makes me want to jam an ice pick into my ear). That said, I like the guys that Painter and Co. have picked up so far. Correct me if I am wrong (very well could be), but I thought I heard/read that the incoming 2013 class as it is now is suppose to be as good, if not better, than Hummel/Moore/Johnson?
My view is this… you can’t win them all. Painter is recruiting the guys, but they are making the choice not to come here. We all say on a regular basis and agree that Purdue isn’t “sexy” to the rest of the country. I think we would all agree (unfortunately) that kids growing up in Indiana that aren’t ND fans are at a very minimum 51% IU fans rather than Purdue (I’m guessing probably closer to 70% give or take in reality). There is only so much that Painter can do. I am proud of Painter’s recruiting (doing it right and cleanly) and getting what he gets. I am proud that our teams are overwhelmingly Indiana kids… that’s the way it should be.
Buckeye by birth, but BOILERMAKER by the grace of God!
no way 2013 is better than 2007
with Derek Willis it would be in the discussion, but the current 3 are in no way comparable to how great the 07 class was. 2013 has a top 50 and a top 55 player in Stephens and Scott and then a non-ranked Smotherman. 07 had 35, 42, 75. That is two accurately projected top 45 players and a top 75.
2013 gets more talk than 2007 because recruiting has become a more prominent topic of conversation, but that ’07 class was absolutely dirty even when we ignore Scott Martin (76) and Calsan who was a college ready PF/C to help with the growing process.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
^This
Unless Stephens and Scott move up in the rankings and Smotherman goes back to a coach that knows how to limit rotations (as well as not playing him as a 5), the 07 class is better. People really tend to forget that E’twaun was a huge, huge recruit.
Correction on my part
I actually was attempting to talk about the 2012 class as "as good, if not better, than Hummel/Moore/Johnson. I may in fact still be wrong in my thinking (what I thought I read/heard somewhere), but after looking up the recruits, I had the year incorrect.
Buckeye by birth, but BOILERMAKER by the grace of God!
It is a good class because of the balance it brings and bringing things we need.
-Lewis Jackson graduating, so bringing in RJ at the point is great.
-Hammons being a 7 foot center is something we are really missing right now. Carrol is not a natural post player.
-Davis is a crazy scorer who is great at the slashing game (something this team lacks a little right now).
-Simpson being a big athlete who can help with rebounding after Hummel leaves.
Forgot to mention
It still isn’t as good as the 07 class. The 07 class was amazing and had 1 B1G PoY and two more 1-st Big Ten and 2nd/3rd team All-Americans. That is a pretty high bar to topple.
Point taken
but when they came into Purdue they weren’t B1G POTY or All Americans. You can only base the recruiting class on when they came in… or at least that is my basis/what I was getting at.
Buckeye by birth, but BOILERMAKER by the grace of God!
Well it wasn't just what I said that makes the '12 class not on equal terms.
The ‘07 class had a unanimous top 40 player in E’twaun, a super 60 recruit in JJ, and Hummel (and THE TRAITOR) being in the 70’s or higher.
How about this
The ‘12 & ’13 class could be as good as the ’07 & ’08 class. We may not end up with the guys as good as JJ, Smooge and Hummel, but it’s possible there won’t be as big a drop off after the top 3.
Yes, that is true.
The problem Purdue had was depth. Kramer and Grant were good, as was Lewis Jackson. But that makes only 6 players that you could expect a solid night from, every night. The ’12 and ’13 class are bringing in some good players, but more importantly talented depth.
I think you could still argue that Scott could be the best recruit Painter has landed.
by Jackson Brunner on Feb 13, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe by the end of his career at Purdue, yes.
But going by rankings alone, it was definitely E’twaun. He was the 8th, 25th, and 20th recruit according to Scout, Rivals, and ESPN respectively. If Bryson goes above and beyond Big Ten player of the year, Big Ten defensive player of the year, and first team All-American in the same season then he will be the best recruit Painter ever had (JaJaun).
As you see, that is a a very tall order to live up to. It isn’t fair to heap that kind of expectation on a kid still in his junior year of high school. He hasn’t even played a minute for Purdue yet and you are saying it is arguable he is better than two of the greatest Purdue players (and Big Ten players to be quite honest) to ever play.
"could still argue" "could be"
Read my comment again lol
by Jackson Brunner on Feb 13, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, I read it as "the best" not "could be the best"
My point still stands!
I agree with this...
I don’t follow recruiting that closely… just what I read on sites like this. It seems like we have some good classes on their way after a few classes that are considered “misses” by Painter. Until we win a NC or get to the Final Four on a regular basis, classes like those coming in seem to be the best we can expect. If we hit a grand slam and finally win the NC, maybe we can get the 5-stars. Until then, I will gladly accept the 4-stars that Painter now seems to be lining up.
It's
Such a fine line from 11 to 90 most rankings are based on a scouts opinion if he was all that great he would have a better job. For my money Hank with the railroad tie could do as well if not better than most. I see it with bias and what fits for us. Also Painter gets on them early then when people see that he has offered their stock rises Quickly. Like Dawson,Willis, and Scott and many more. The top 10 usually stand out anyone can pick them. 91 -150 is a crap shoot .
no one on an internet message board
is better at scouting and evaluating talent than the Dave Teleps and Eric Bossi’s of the world. I’m sorry, but that statement is just asinine. There certainly is a lot of flux in a class over a few years but when all is said and done, these guys rank 150 out of thousands of individuals pretty damn accurately. Hank with Railroad Tie would have the job they have if he was so good at scouting.
These scouting guys know what they’re talking about and they get paid accordingly. Can you please point to a better job than head of scouting at ESPN? Great paycheck, large budget and probably a top 20 most influential individual in the sport you love. Dave Telep is so good at his job, he gets paid a lot to do what most of us would do for free.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
I should have
been more clear I was refering to our recruits . And giving props to Hank for all the detailed work he does . I should have figured you would try and be little him for it cheap shot. Real cheap shot . Next time just come at me and leave him alone cheap shot .
it is hardly a cheap shot. You aren't as good at coaching as Matt Painter. Does that offend you?
I bet he’d be the first to tell you he’s not near the level as those guys. I like to think I’m pretty recruit/talent evaluating savvy but I’m not about claim I can hold a candle to those guys.
If you’re referring specifically to your recruits only, then I have no doubt Hank is more well versed than a national guy. Hank has to view and evaluate 3-4 guys a year. In that same vein, I can tell you a ton about the strengths and flaws of IU’s 10 recruits. I can’t tell you much about UCLA’s. Dave Telep could, at length and UNC’s and Duke’s and Kentucky’s and NC State’s and Butler’s and… you get it.
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
Sorry Hoosier, I forgot that all of us should be dead scared of Hanner Parea.
…even though Raphael Davis continually torches everyone LaLu plays and outscores Parea every single night.
by Jackson Brunner on Feb 13, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
In his defense.
The offense runs through Davis. That IS because he is such a good scorer, but Parea’s play is not shabby either.
good lord
everyone is so damn defensive. When did I ever say any of that?
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
What?!
AJ droppin the !=
You’re spending so much time with us you’re turning into an engineer!!
Next thing you know we’ll start teaching you how to do multiplication!!!!!!
/finish trolling
And yeah, we as a fanbase could really use a win anytime really, but especially against MSU Sunday.
The only home games we have won in 2012 are NW and Iowa. A win over top-10 Sparty would work wonders for everyone’s morale.(Not to mention our tourney resume)
they're losing their minds, and I'm reaping all the benefits
-Contributing Writer at The Crimson Quarry.
Yes, apperantly peoplke here are starting to become uncivil to other fans.
Something I just never understood. It is sports. At the end of the day sports should not make you angry with someone. Your life will not be ruined if one team is better than another. The only people who should really get upset over the games are the players and coaches.
I stand corrected then
but my 2nd paragraph still stands. I’m happy with what Painter has been doing. Unlike many fans lately, I wouldn’t want anyone else roaming our sidelines outside of maybe Gene Keady again (I know, I know… unrealistic and stupid after how his last X number of years were… just being funny and showing my love for Coach Keady).
Buckeye by birth, but BOILERMAKER by the grace of God!
Some of these comments were more confusing than...
…the Nicki Minaj performance on the Grammy Awards (I have a daughter, which required me to watch).
People are getting way too worked up. Silly.
Purdue 9939,Hereby20 and Jackson
Your all right I say it is like comparing apples to oranges. I liked them all but with Scott and Etwaun who cares I give Scott a slight and I mean a slight edge because his defense can change your whole team. We have seen it with Kramer. I started watching E when he was 2 years away and raved about him as I have with Scott . Ronnie may swing the tide either up or down.
Is everyone really this fragile???
What is going on here? Everyone got their panites in a wad over Valentine’s Day? Mulitple posts telling people how to behave on an anonymous message board? People getting their feelings so hurt over what a-holes on the internet say? Multiple people clammoring to kiss AJ’s little candy-striped arse? Is this entire message board a bunch of teenage girls? Geez…
by RxPurdue on Feb 14, 2012 1:44 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
It is a good question...
What’s got all you boys so emotional??
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