Butler 67, Purdue 65: Another Complete Collapse
by BoilerTMill on Dec 17, 2011 4:57 PM EST
in Men's Basketball
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PrintOn the surface it seems so simple. At the time we scored our final field goal of this game there was no pressure whatsoever. Terone Johnson's basket put us up 63-54 and we were still cruising despite a challenge from Butler early in the second half. There should have been no stress the rest of the way.
Instead, we decided we needed to get timid and refuse to attack the basket. Each possession dragged out with either no good looks or a forced shot. We managed to score two lousy points in the final eight minutes, on a free throw each by Lewis Jackson and Robbie Hummel. Even then, they missed other free throws that would have stemmed the tide. For the second time in two weeks we suffered a complete collapse by going away from what was working to build a big lead. I'm sorry, but if playing the game at a faster tempo, attacking the basket, and hustling back on defense is working there is little reason to stop doing it.
Quite frankly, we deserve any scorn and mockery we receive right now. We could not have looked better offensively in the first half, and could not have looked worse in the second half. Ryne Smith was lost on offense and we didn't even try to find him or get him open. We relentlessly attacked the basket and took advantage of backdoor cuts in the first half, but it was like we forgot how to do it in the second half. Butler didn't change anything or do anything special. They just waited for us to fall apart and took advantage.
Now, for the first time this season we have a seriously damaging loss and it looks like we are going to struggle to make the NCAA Tournament. We still have good wins against Temple, Iona, and Miami in our pocket, but this is a bad loss unless it wakes Butler up in Horizon league play. the magic number to dance for us is still 20 wins, and this now means we must win 10 in the Big Ten to get there.
It is so hard to pinpoint what is wrong, too. Everything that works in the first 30 minutes completely stops in the last 10. You could play the first 30 minutes of this game and the first 30 minutes of the Xavier game next to each other and tell a neutral observer that we would lose both and they would ask how. There is simply no excuse for this whatsoever. At least against Alabama we got outplayed. I can accept that. To completely fall apart after looking not only good, but dominant, is inexplicable.
It is not on Painter, either. people are questioning whether he is worth his contract extension, but that is simply irrational. Painter doesn't miss free throws. painter doesn't miss layups. Painter does not seize up and fail to attack the basket when that's what we need. What we need to do in these final minutes is so simple that I trust he is telling them to do it, but it is up to the players to get it done. Our final possession is an example. We needed to attack the basket, so we cleared a lane for LewJack because it was there all afternoon. We hadn't done it the entire second half, but when we needed to, he did it. He drew a foul, but missed the first free throw. Is that on Painter? No!
Any person with even a modicum of logic would look at this squad and see the talent is there to be a good team. you don't go into Xavier and dominate for 30 minutes without that talent. It is clearly a mental thing, however. It is mental that we're missing key free throws. It is mental that we tighten up as soon as the pressure is on. It is mental that our bigs are picking up fouls and stop being aggressive. It is mental that we don't do simple things like set screens to free up shooters or attack the basket. Right now, this is a talented team, but not a mentally tough team.
Well, there are no more excuses. Conference play begins in 11 days. The time to change things is now, and we have to decide if we want to change them or continuing rolling over when it matters most. There is no excuse whatsoever for rolling over like this.
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We were spoiled the last 3 years.
This is really a transition year now. Our best players are leaving this year but we don’t have the talent to be a final four team or really a B1G threat. With the classes coming in, I really hope that the young guys that will be the core of the next team get playing time. Why did AJ only play 7 minutes? Painter isnt the one missing the free throws, etc, but he is one giving the minutes out, he is the one recruiting TFC.
Hummel needs to shoot less?
Not sure if it is fatigue but he is only shooting 35% the last 4 games:
7-21 .333
6-16 .375
4-13 .308
6-17 .352
Hummel is not a team's go to guy
There is a reason he never leads a team. Scott MArtin was the go to guy at Valpo, and Hummel was 3rd option when JJ and Moore were here. WE can’t expect him to become the leader since this is something that is not natural to him. Face the facts, he is invisible down the stretch in all of Purdue’s losses.
by PurdueBoiler1995 on Dec 17, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Wow...speaking of stretches...
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by carmen_fanzone on Dec 17, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
It's a stretch, but he's on to something
Robbie could be more free to shoot since E’Twaun and JJ were also viable options to score. Now there is basically NO ONE on that team that can be on at crunch time and make key baskets* besides Hummel, Smith or Jackson. Even then these guys are getting gassed at the end. At least Robbie didn’t cramp up again…
- key baskets INCLUDE free throws…
To your call once more we rally...
JJ was NOT a viable scoring option his freshman year...
….and, really, most of his sophomore year. That’s my main area of disagreement.
I’d say that both Moore and Hummel were “first options” their first two years. Robbie carried that ‘Baby Boiler’ team through the Big Ten season. And it was more of the same starting his sophomore season until the back injuries started messing him up.
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by carmen_fanzone on Dec 17, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
I will agree with you on that w JJ being a "VIABLE" scoring option
but he was CAPABLE of finishing dimes by dunking when he was a freshman, he would also not travel as much as Chooch, and Carroll. He was pretty much a taller version of Lawson, which is acceptable for me
To your call once more we rally...
Speaks the truth.
Valpo in in my HS conference (DAC) and whenever we played them, Martin stole the show. Coming out of high school, I couldn’t wait to see Scott play for Purdue. I bought his shirt and was super excited. Robbie then sorta took over the spotlight their freshman year.
Well
This year has been tougher than I thought it would be. I have enough confidence in Coach Painter that this team will get better and become more mentally tougher, but clearly we have to stop going into this prevent offense so early and I can’t give Painter a free pass because the coach is responsible for the team’s performance and today’s second half was a disaster. However, Coach Painter has been able to turn around teams in the past and get the best out of them, so I’m not going into doomsday mode.
Stevens adjusted on LewJack
Longer, taller player for Butler (Woods?) was guarding him the 2nd half. That’s why he wasn’t able to drive to the basket as easily.
Match-ups in the 2nd half I think caused a lot of disruption in our offense. Gotta give credit to Stevens for that, and I’m not sure with our personnel there was much we could have done to combat that. They bottled up our scorers and the others didn’t come through…or even look to come through.
Players need to step up. We’ve been saying it all year. We will continue to struggle if the players don’t.
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Why no AJ though, he avg 18 minutes, 8 points per game
CMP played him 7 minutes today. He played TFC almost as much! Where is the counter adjustment?
4 guards ahead of him had pretty good games?
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by carmen_fanzone on Dec 17, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously his defense was a factor today more than his offense.
Disrupted Butler all afternoon.
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by carmen_fanzone on Dec 17, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Butler is shooting 38% shooting from the field, 321st overall in the country
Probably needed more offense than defense in the second half.
Up by 11 at the half...
…defense will always be our calling card.
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by carmen_fanzone on Dec 17, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
AJ is a decent defender and ALWAYS hustles on D boards. I think its fair to say he could have played more today.
Potential is nothing without performance....
I'd argue that he's not a better defender than Lew, Barlow, or even Smith...
…and Terone provided some offense early when he got in there, so AJ wasn’t going to make a difference today other than bringing inexperience in to a tight ball game. Painter always tightens up the rotation the closer it gets to the Big Ten season, so I’m thinking 7 minutes is going to be about average for AJ from now on, unless he provides a spark.
Why no outrage for John Hart getting 0 minutes?
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by carmen_fanzone on Dec 17, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Hart hasnt played all year
AJ has, he is not a better defender but is shooting better than Barlow. We scored 19 points in the second half, they scored 32… where was the defense there? We needed offense more than defense at that point. No way AJ only gets 7 minutes a game from now on. Obviously we lost so that close rotation didnt work so well.
Hart played last game....
We make one defensive stop and we win the game. But, hey, hindsight is 20-20. If you think Anthony Johnson would have been the difference, more power to ya.
Painter won a few ball games the last few years by tightening up the rotation. It’ll happen. Wouldn’t surprise me if Hart starting eating into AJ’s minutes if he’s all the way back, health-wise.
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by carmen_fanzone on Dec 17, 2011 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
AJ
Hart or anyone else will not eat into AJ’s minutes. The problem we had with about 6ish minutes to go where we struggle to score is when we have Barlow and LewJack on the court (with Lawson, who can’t create his own shots at this point) and both continue to settle for jump shots, which has never been their game.
AJ would have been a wonderful offensive substitution. But I love MP so I’m not disagreeing, just questioning the questioning of AJ who will be a tremendous player for us. AJ is the offensive spark off the bench. Once he gets a bit of experience, he will put up solid numbers.
Same issue in all 3 losses
It’s simple - our two best players don’t have the health & fitness to carry us late in games. Robbie & LewJack aren’t practicing and you can tell every time a shot is short, a free throw is missed, or a guy blows by them. We get off to fast starts and then get run out of the building in the 2nd half. It’s true that nobody else is stepping up, but nobody’s ‘cracking’. They just don’t have the experience or skills when the senior leaders are running out of gas.
Of course not
They’re doing the best they can, but clearly struggled late in some games. Somebody else needs to add a spark, but who’s it gonna be? Robbie’s a half-step slow before the game even starts and LewJack is banged up before B1G play even starts? That’s trouble unless somebody can start taking some pressure off those guys.
I was serious
Just wondering if letting them get healthy while we are playing easier teams vs never having them heal fully and having this continual fight against nagging injuries (mostly talking about LewJack). We had an entire week off and his back was still locking up today.
I'd sit LewJack next game....
..or at least limit his minutes.
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by carmen_fanzone on Dec 17, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
Conditioning
I agree. It looks like a conditioning issue. Any of us who play pickup hoops would admit that at the end of a several runs we don’t have the lift, speed, legs…energy that we had at the beginning. This would most likely indicate that we don’t practice but simply gear up for the games. Painter has said several times it is a challenge when Jackson, Hummel and T Johnson are not practicing all the time. At the end of games they don’t have it. Look at the shooting percentages from the field in the last 10 minutes compared to the first half.
I also don’t see much of the motion offense in those last 10 minutes. The first half of the Butler and Xavier games they were constantly moving but in the the last 10 they were pooped and we saw lots of one-on-one. Unfortunately I don’t think there is an easy answer. Most likely we will beat a few teams we shouldn’t but lose to some we should not either.
by ChelseaCharles on Dec 17, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Loser's mentality
Much was made in the past week about the Purdue fanbase having a loser’s mentality on some of our threads here. I submit that this team has the loser’s mentality, and it has spread to the fans who support them. They looked absolutely lifeless out there in the second half. They lack the ability to get back up off the mat after getting punched in the mouth. They roll over and die every time a team makes a run against them. It’s really pathetic to watch them just fold mentally. Does Purdue have a sports psychologist on staff? If not, better call up the psych department quick, these guys need their heads adjusted ASAP.
Player rotation and offensive scheme need work
I agree that we need mental toughness, but our offensive sets are not currently built around our strengths. When Jackson penetrated today and broke down Butler’s defense, too many times the first open player was Barlow. We need to adjust to penetrate on Smith and Hummel’s side of the court. That happened when Hummel hit that 3 from the left corner.
In the past CMP has made more unpredictable adjustments to our lineup and rotations. I asked multiple times today where A. Johsnon was…especially during the second half.
I keep thinking we’ll see a 1-5 rotation of Jackson/A. Johnson/T. Johnson/Smith/Hummel…small, I know, but ALL scorers and decent defenders…..
I still also believe we need to remove Hale’s redshirt. He would be such a scoring spark off the bench with the other young guys….
Potential is nothing without performance....
It is not on Painter, either. Painter does not seize up and fail to attack the basket when that’s what we need. What we need to do in these final minutes is so simple that I trust he is telling them to do it, but it is up tot he players to get it done.
10 minutes is a long time to put up with players not doing what they are told. Shouldn’t CMP be taking time outs or putting in players who will get it done if those on the floor aren’t doing what he says? This is twice now. If players are doing preventative offense when CMP is telling them to attack than players need to be rotated out. My guess is a lot of it is on Painter too.
I think part of it has to be on the underclassmen
who’s the leader of that group? Lew, Ryne and Rob have about 20 some games left in their careers. Quite frankly I don’t know who will be the glue player. You’d think it would be Byrd being in the system for 2.5 years already, but he’s quiet and invisible in games. Barlow…… yeah.. I’d like it to be AJ & TJ, but they haven’t shown me that they can lead and help improve other players on the team. Somebody on the underclassmen group has to call out the softness, somebody has to step up and have this team work harder in practice, somebody has to step up and be reliable on free throws and finishing. Somebody has to have the attitude that they are better than what they’ve shown.
To your call once more we rally...
Why underclassmen?
If anything, it’s the seniors. Hummel is our spiritual leader, and LewJack is never afraid to speak out. I think they need to get everyone together, hold each other accountable, and push each other to success. Call a players-only meeting or sth. Let everything come out – I am sure there’s A LOT of frustration in the locker room, just like there is among us fans. This is time for senior leadership, and we need to see that in Robbie and LewJack.
I say underclassmen because I feel like the seniors are doing their part
and besides I’m also looking at this team retrospectively and prospectively. 4 years ago, the freshmen were encouraging each other and putting in the work, and their efforts improved, you could see it in their improvement from year to year, because they were self-motivated. I don’t see a person like this in the underclassmen. Besides you don’t “wait” till the seniors leave before you become a leader… be the leader from the get go, at least take the time to get better with your class. Also the whole “we miss Kramer” thing, although valid, is pointless. You find another Kramer a guy who is just as relentless, and tell them “this is what I expect from you” etc. That’s what each successful program has, look @ Duke, Carolina, UK, UCONN, MSU. Similar guys who are athletic but also follow the mold of the last championship player before him. I don’t see anybody like that in the last 3 classes. If there is one, one needs to step up
To your call once more we rally...
H is right
Robbie, Lew and Ryne all show flashes of putting the team on their shoulders, but we need some of the other guys to step up when the seniors aren’t on the floor/getting shots.
They’ve been spoiled the past two years, knowing that they can just pass it off to JJ, Smooge, or the current seniors and let them handle it from there. Now it’s time for them to step up and become a new crop of leaders.
We need one of the bigs to establish themselves as a down-low guy who can score consistently without fouling himself out of the game, and we need someone who can consistently fill the slasher role of Smooge/Lew and inspire the other guys. I think Barlow has the tools to do so, but so far he’s too undisciplined to take that mantle.
Too many guys are standing around waiting for Rob or Lew or Ryne to do something.
Chooch has the best potential
He played really well before getting in foul trouble.
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by BoilerTMill on Dec 17, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
This year, I agree
I think Lawson has more upside, overall, but he needs another year to become more disciplined and not foul so much.
Chooch
Unfortunately that is the problem…. He just is so inconsistent…it’s like nothing sinks in with him mentally.
Let’s face it, almost everyone on this team is flawed in some major way. This has to do with 3 years of mediocre, at best, recruiting after the baby boilers. We will have some decent wins but will probably struggle to make it into the upper half of the Big 10. LewJack is an excellent example, I mean seriously, he overcomes so many weaknesses in his game to be an excellent point guard for the most part. I just wish any of the others overcame as much so well.
Let’s just accept this and appreciate whatever this team gives us the rest of the year. And hope the seniors go out on a good note.
Agree and disagree
By 4 yrs ago, I think you are referring to the baby boilers? Certainly, they encouraged each other and self-motivated to get the improvement every year, no doubt. I also agree that success breeds success and young players from Duke/UNC/etc have a role model they can look up to. Those are definitely important points. (Ppl sometimes just credit the coach for motivation, or maybe the player, but I think equally important is the peer pressure. You never wanna disappoint your teammate.)
Having said that, I am not sure what is the criticism you have on the underclassmen. If you are saying the underclassmen are not trying to get better, then I disagree. I see GDB improve on his shooting (did you remember how horrible his FTs were in his freshman year?), that AJ has really followed Robbie last year and learned from him, just like what you described from a Duke/UNC underclassmen. TJ had surgery in the summer so I couldn’t really fault him for not giving the big improvement. Lawson just came in and is off surgery too so I can’t fault him either. True, I can’t defend TC but your criticism seems to apply to ALL underclassmen and not just him.
Now when you say “be the leader from the get go”, what do you expect from the underclassmen? I don’t know if you’ve played organized basketball, but the leader is usually 1) the most skilled player, 2) the player with the most seniority, or 3) the player with the biggest heart (e.g. Kramer). It’s hard to be a leader if you aren’t playing enough minutes, and for our current crop of underclassmen it just seems too much to ask to be a “leader” for the team.
Having said that, I do agree that next yr, I don’t see GDB as a leader given his history, and unless Byrd steps up big time this season, I just don’t see him as a leader either playing single-digit minutes. If anyone, TJ has to be the one, given that he already has his brother with him and arguably the most experienced skill player.
Yes, I have played organized bball, tust me I know how a captain works
But just because you’re skilled, or a senior, doesn’t mean you always get the most out of your team. It usually is that way, but it’s not always the case.
Case in point, Draymond Green, he showed that type of leadership and accountability when he was a frosh (even though, Durrell Summers and Kalin Lucas were the more known players). Sparty doesn’t get to play for the NC in Detroit, if it wasn’t for Day Day. Another example close to home is Kramer, who admittedly learned the leadership role from David Teague and Carl Landry (thank you guys for taking us back to the Dance my senior year), Kramer pretty much laid the foundation on amping up defense his freshman year though. Second year, Kramer became the defacto leader (remember the lone senior on the Baby Boilers frosh season was Tarrance Crump… yeah). Kramer decided to take on the vocal role and the intensity role, calling out Calasan for being soft, and getting on him to get better. Honestly I really do think that’s why the Boilers were good that year because everybody bought in to what a sophomore was exuding. LewJack to another extent has been a vocal player/leader for Purdue as well, even when the Baby Boilers were the more talented/experienced players.
Flash forward to now, the remnants of players from a foundation that started 5-6 years ago is going to be done in 20 games. What I’m looking forward is to see which person on this team gets it, and gets this team working harder and more resilient to win games and get us ready for March (it’s still a possibility). If it’s not there, then I hope and pray that someone gets it in next year freshman class. I agree with you charlespig. I really think AJ and TJ are the guys, they can be the guys. They seem to both be tough scorers. I also thought TJ can be that guy. Maybe it’s the injuries, I don’t know but I think that he needs to be more vocal, and they both need to be more clutch. I’m not sure what they need to do to make sure they can do that, but they need to put in shots and don’t be too afraid to step on toes, this team has goals just like everybody else, it’s not coming easy this year. Time to grow up boys. Perhaps Rob, Lew, and Ryne can tell them this in that players only meeting…
To your call once more we rally...
Well, yes, but do realize that
…to an extent, it’s easier to step up in Kramer’s case when the cupboard is empty like we were after Landry and Teague gone. When you are in a team where the upperclassmen are nothing close to all-B1G it’s easier to step up.
Sure, we don’t have a vocal leader to move the troop like Kramer. But I’ll say this, 1) don’t worry about next yr – that’s too far away and ppl can step up between now and then, and 2) give Robbie some time. Robbie is not an in-your-face guy like Kramer, but he has the basketball IQ, the personality, and the seniority status to get the same thing done. He is gonna do it differently than Kramer, and his way may take longer to reach the underclassmen. But I really think he will step it up when the going gets tough (unlike some fans here). If anything we’ve learned from his two ACL tear, it’s that he is mentally strong enough to come back from big adversity. It’s gonna take time, but give him some patience.
Free Throw %
Seniors: 86-114 .754
Rest: 77-151 .510
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by carmen_fanzone on Dec 17, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
This is where we miss Kramer
He really was a vocal leader and wasn’t afraid to get in his teammate’s face when they need to perform better. I was expecting Hummel to be a vocal leader as well this year since JJ and E’twaun last year were leaders by example, but it seems he’d rather lead by example than be vocal. Granted, this isn’t a bad thing as it puts points on the board, but sometimes you need to be that vocal leader for the team, and we have been missing that for the last 2 seasons.
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BTFU or GTFO
missing the Red Button
Moore spoiled us rotten. We had stretches last couple years where offense disappeared and he was the guy who woke us up and got the hoop we had to have.
RE the glue guy on this year’s team, unless he is seriously hurt Byrd should be playing 20 minutes per game and be in at the end. We have gotten nothing from him this year and he only gets the minutes Hummel gives up. I’d like to see him on the floor with Hummel. He does a little of everything and is the toughest guy on the team (or maybe Lew). We need more tough at the end.
Yes, I don't understand what happened with Byrd
Somehow he just seems lost backing up Hummel. But then he also went from starter to like the 9th man, coming in after TJ, AJ, and Lawson.
My untrustworthy DVR stopped recording after the first half
So I only watched the first half and thought we would pocket another W. Then I came to H&R and damn I can’t believe what I saw!! Maybe it’s a good thing I didn’t get to watch, sigh…
From what I am hearing it sounds like FT bites us again. Maybe we should get the women’s assistant coach to help us. I just watched the Sharon Versyp’s show on BTN, and Christy Smith, the assistant coach, is the second all-time FT made in school history and holds the single-season school record and led the nation with 89.9% in the 1994-1995 season.
Regarding FTs, she basically says the same thing we know – it’s a lot mental and a lot of repetition. The key is, when you step on the line, you should have no doubt in mind that the ball is going to go in. I think that’s the missing piece. Because our FT shooting woes is so publicized that everyone stepping on the line is self-doubting and just praying it would go in. No, what Coach Smith says is that you need to have the absolute confidence, and that just comes from repetition.
Finally,
No Zeller x2, No Plumlee x3, No Thomas, No Dawson. Players in our back yard can’t get them to sign…even when we’ve had some recent success…
To your call once more we rally...
Yes, this is a very sad fact
And you may as well add no Harris, when his mother is an All-American at Purdue. And no G-Rob III, when his dad is an All-American at Purdue. These are just disappointing.
No excuses
You can’t use past recruiting as a crutch we knew we wouldn’t have those guys going in. Marcuis did look better at times during this game so it seems he will step up and become the 5. CMP is a good coach who makes a lot of good calls, and we knew this was going to be a much harder year than the last 2. Having said that what I said post Xavier holds, there is no excuse for this ever happening against anyone (barring some conditioning or injury thing we don’t know about).
Where is the timeout to stop that run or get a good play? It seemed like every time Butler needed a big shot out of a timeout they got it. The thing that keeps me going is that this year seems a bit like year #1 with the baby boilers – lose some tough out of conference games including at least one we shouldn’t but then come on during conference play.
my point is that this team isn't as stocked as it should be IMO
You’re right though… no excuses. Collapses like this should never happen twice in a 2 week period. I can only say that this team is not as talented or as tough as the other 3/4 teams in the past
To your call once more we rally...
Well, true
but no one expects this team to be as talented or tough as the teams we’ve had in the past 3 or 4 yrs riding JJ, Smooge, Robbie, Kramer and etc.
The reality is that the
next 2 years are going to be somewhat of significant drop-off for the fanbase, compared with the last few.
The talent level simply isn’t there. This is NOT a good Butler team. They have next to nothing offensively. They play tough D, but there should be no reason to lose this game on a neutral floor. The class next year coming in will improve the talent level, most certainly, but those are going to be 4 freshman, and freshman just flat aren’t going to win you games…particularly in the Big Ten (unless your talking like lottery pick level freshman).
The fanbase needs to understand that it will be 13-14 at the earliest before this team will be back in the upper-echelon of the conference.
what scares me about this thought
is that I don’t know who’s going to push the incoming freshmen…
To your call once more we rally...
More than likely
the following class in ‘13. Next year may be downright uglier than this one. I have no idea who the “leader” is going to be on this squad after the 3 seniors of this year leave. I see no one in the junior/sophomore classes that will naturally step into that role. I’m afraid things are going to get worse before they get better.
Why does the incoming freshmen needs to be "pushed"?
Who pushed the baby boilers in 2007? Or, who pushed the Fab Five in Michigan back in the 90s?
Read my response above about the Baby Boilers
When it came to the Fab Five, I concede with you on that. But they didn’t really get it all together until March of their freshman season, mostly because they felt disrespected with their seeding (per Jalen Rose). It does help when you have 5 McDAA players coming in together and you have a chip on your shoulder to shut everybody up. Methinks that will not be Purdue’s incoming class.
To your call once more we rally...
Maybe ...
the incoming class will also think they are disrespected b/c all the attention was on IU’s class? Obviously I dunno, but I won’t worry about that for now. We have more pressing problems to be concerned with this year.
In any case, I do think you might considering mixing it up with Danny Hope. Your worry nature is a good antidote to Hope’s delusional optimism ;-)
Noted
But I’ve also seen a lot of Purdue basketball over the last decade. I really thought we missed a golden opportunity to gain part of the state back in basketball success. However, that’s in the past.
I will be the first one to admit if I’m wrong if these players turn out much better than I expected I usually have an open mind when new recruits come in, as well as a new year to develop so, that will be the same next year as well. I haven’t seen any incoming player (including Hale) play yet so I don’t know what drives them etc. However, that is in the future.
You’re right. Let’s focus on the now. This team will be fun to watch if only for the maturing process, sad to watch because Rob’s final games tour is about to commence, and frustrating because there will be many growing pains along the way. If this makes this team, and coaches, better come March or for the next couple of years. I’m for it.
To your call once more we rally...
Yes
Absolutely agree that we missed a golden opportunity in the last 2 yrs with injuries and just bad breaks here and there. But it is what it is and we just have to do it again.
I am not saying you are wrong. Honestly I am iffy about the Class of 2012 too, as there are some question marks. If I were picky, I’d say things like Hammons don’t look good at all (based on his last game on ESPN), Simpson is a big project (not close to Penea), Rapheal is a one-trick pony and a lot less athletic than Gary Harris, and RJ is only a 56% FT shooter.
But as Mark Twain said, I have many worries, many of them never materialize. So I won’t bother on those but just focus on what we have and what we can be. I think Hale can surprise a lot of ppl after 2 yrs of post-grad work to improve his game; I think AJ can be our go-to guy; I think TJ can emerge as the leader and fulfill his potential once he fully recovered from his surgery; I think Lawson can be a monster; and I think Barlow and Byrd can still improve.
and by the next 2 years
i mean this current season and next year.
Ryne Smith
It’s a joke why this guy is starting. He is not an offensive playmaker and gets burnt on defense. We need an athletic guy like TJ or AJ starting who can make their own play. Smith stands around the 3 point line most of the game and hits a few wide open ones then gives it up on defense. I know he is a senior but we need our 5 most talented guys on the floor and every time smith is on the floor, our lead goes down.
I don't think he's a joke
He’s our best 3-pt shooter, at nearly 47%.
joke why he's starting
with etwaan last year, he was able to clear a guy out of the lane for him to drive so he was more effective and was our fifth or sixth best player. this year we need a more athletic guy who can make his own shot in the starting line up and would benefit more from one of the johnson boys. Versus miami, every time smith came in, the lead got cut, then insert johnson bigger lead. You cant rely on ryne smith to be one of your best players and expect to compete for championships. I just notice purdue is a stronger team with him on the bench.
We're struggling to score in the paint
I agree that if we had another guy who could open up the lane, they would probably be the better play as a starter, but right now, we don’t have one. Lew/Rob seem to be the only ones who can consistently push the ball inside, so I understand Painter throwing Ryne out there as a 3-pt threat, he doesn’t have a lot of interior options until one or more of the other guys step up.
I love the Johnson boys, and I too wanna see more of them
…but the knock on Smith is unwarranted. Looking at the times when Smith is in the game in the Miami game (there are 7 times when he is in the game), three of them our lead got trimmed (by -2, -4, and -2), three other times our lead expand (by +7, +2, and +2), and one time the score is unchanged. Net, when Smith is on the floor we increased our lead by 3 pts.
Also, keep in mind that the Miami game is Smith’s second worst game (in terms of scoring) this year. Try doing a +/- on the game he made 8 threes and you see a grossly different number.
I am sure if AJ can step up his D, Painter will play him more. He is more athletic than Smith and a better rebounder. But as of now, I think it is very reasonable to play Smith. At the minimum, he is a career 91% FT shooter.
Lastly, I agree that ideally, I don’t want Smith to be our primary option. He was great as the third option (like last year) to be used to punish the defense when they key on our first two options (JJ and Smooge). That’s Diebler’s role at O$U last year and he did great. However, we are not living in an ideal world, and we have no inside presence, so if anything we really need Smith’s 3-ball this year more than ever.
I do not disagree
But i think the reason he is starting is because Painter has said that he knows we are lacking an inside presence, and wants to become more perimeter oriented. This means 3-balls, and since that is literally all Smith can do, I guess he gets the nod over a TJ or AJ. I personally think Smith is garbage; I am not a fan of the stand around on the 3 point line strategy. He is only effective when somebody sets a screen for him and gets him a catch and shoot.
Geez, that's insulting
I personally think Smith is garbage
I may understand you say this to guys like TC (which I still think is inappropriate), but trashing Ryne Smith like that?!?! Geez, are you from IU?
If you are a Purdue fan, you should know Smith is your proto-typical Boiler – guys who overachieve beyond what others think is possible. Smith might be “garbage” in his first 2 seasons, but he has stepped up big time, won B1G player of the week last year and now second in the team in scoring behind Hummel, including tying a school record in making 8 threes in a game. Reggie Miller and Ray Allen were also just shooting 3s, and also effective only when someone sets him a screen and gets him a catch and shoot, but they can be hugely influential. Obviously Smith is a far cry from Reggie or Ray, but even Steve Kerr was instrumental to Chicago Bulls’ championship run. To this team, Ryne’s contribution is immense (just look at the team awards he won).
As far as his defense, sure, he is the farthest from being athletic. But you know who won the Courage Award last year (for taking the most charges)? Ryne Smith. He did his best to make up his defensive deficiency by sacrificing his body and be sure to be the first one standing in front of freight trains to try to pick up a charge. And yes, I agree that’s not pretty, and sure, I’d want some crazily athletic defensive shut-down pest over Smith, but there is no doubt that Smith gave his all in defense, and that’s why Painter is playing him. Painter just doesn’t play guys who can’t play D, just ask Ryne Smith how many minutes he got as a frosh and soph.
The courage needed to take charges is sth that morons like you won’t understand. This is why Ryne Smith also won the Ray Eddy “Mr. Hustle” honor of the team last year, which goes to the person who shows the most determination, drive and leadership. It is dumbass like you who think you got a better opinion of Ryne’s contribution than his teammates. How pathetic!
Truthfully, I hope you are just an IU troll. If you are a Purdue fan I feel truly disgusted. If Ryne (as a 47% 3-pt shooter and 2nd leading scorer of the team) is garbage, then I’m pretty sure you are worse than garbage based on your insulting comments.
Easy man.
You’re absolutely right on the merits, but there’s no need to get personal, which I think you drifted into towards the end there. Of course it’s absurd to call the team’s best shooter garbage.
I forget who wrote it, but there’s a political book out there called “Not Evil, Just Wrong.” I’m pretty sure that applies here.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Dec 18, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
Mike
I agree that I got too personal, but I find “garbage” a very offensive term (imagine I call your band “garbage”, or call this site “garbage” – how would you feel? How would TMill feel?)
I understand that we as fans might get frustrated after an inexcusable loss and would call out very mean things. Fine, I get that. But directly to a particular player and calling him garbage crosses the line, esp. when the player has been contributing. I feel that it is my duty to take a stand for the player. Imagine a Purdue target reading this blog (not unlikely, right?) and all they see is how players get trashed, you think they would want to come here? I’d hope that they will see fans standing up and supporting the players, in good times AND BAD.
No problem. I absolutely agree with you, and everything you said about Ryne.
I was more referencing the IU troll comment, along with calling him garbage. It wasn’t especially what I’d call WAY over the line, I was just hoping to head off a flame war, as I happen to know that B3lisarius isn’t an IU troll.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Dec 18, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
Understood
I don’t mean to call B3lisarius garbage. If he takes offense, I’d apologize, but hope that he would then understand why it is offensive. My guess is that the term means little to him, but obviously you know him better than me.
And I wouldn’t have that kind of reaction if it is to a player like TC, for he has indeed been disappointing. If it’s TC I’d likely just say “Criticism, yes; trashing, no” and move on.
With Ryne, I think it hits a chord in me deep down. I am not an athletic player, but I take a lot of pride in overachieving and playing to the best of my ability. That’s what I’ve learned from years of Purdue basketball with guys like Cardinal and Kramer. I have defensive deficiency against younger players but many times ppl have commented on my amazing hustling attitude. So when B3lisarius calls Ryne garbage, I take it personally. Not every basketball player is gifted athletically, but we still try to play hard, hustle, and do the best we can to help the team win. I didn’t win many friends trying to stand in their way and take charge, but if that helps my team win I am not backing down.
Actually, I'd pass him on the street without knowing it.
But I’ve seen him around here before, and never taken issue with him before.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Dec 18, 2011 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
I live
7 hours from campus and get to go to few and see a few games a year and Smith seems to play just as hard as any other player. His placement of the floor seems directed by the direction the motion offense takes and our need for the outside option threat. Defensively we are “usually” one of the best teams in the land at switching and helping. A player like Smith’s deficiencies are covered when the help is good and magnified when others are not rotating quickly or effectively. Sandi and Jacob haven been a little late rotating and Carroll never gets there and it has been magnifying Smith’s deficiencies. Remember it’s never as goo or bad as it looks.
Black and Gold blood runs through my veins
by winnie42 on Dec 18, 2011 9:37 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
This is a perimeter oriented
The players you mention have the ability to drive/slash, but have not shown any level of consistency in doing so when on the floor….or finishing when they do.
Geez, do you really watch Purdue basketball?
Why didn’t you say that when Smith hit a record 8 three-pointers?
Why didn’t you tell his teammates that he didn’t deserve the Ray Eddy "Mr. Hustle" honor of the team last year, which goes to the person who shows the most determination, drive and leadership – and b/c you know Ryne better than them?
Have you ever tried sacrificing your body and take one for the team to stand in front of a freight train player running at you full speed, just to try to pick up a charge? If no, then Ryne Smith can tell you a thing or two b/c he won the Courage award for taking the most charges. BTW, that’s the award that Kramer won in multiple yrs too. Are you saying Kramer doesn’t deserve to start coz he can’t even hit a 3 consistently?
every time smith is on the floor, our lead goes down
Patently untrue. I just do a quick look at the play-by-play, Smith started the game at 0-0, went out at 14:14 left when the lead is 14-6; came back in at 9:48 when the lead was 22-16, and stayed till the half which ended at 46-35. In other words, he helped built an 8-pt lead, then when he was out the lead went down to 6, and after he came back it extends to 11. So how is that “EVERY TIME” Smith is on the floor our lead goes down? It seems to be the exact opposite.
If starting a 47% 3-pt shooter is a joke, then I guess your statement is a bigger joke. I am not saying one can start just b/c he can shoot 3s, but if 1) he can shoot and make the 3-ball, 2) he is a team player who is willing to sacrifice his body, 3) he has demonstrated determination, drive and leadership as approved by his teammates, and 4) he is the second-leading scorer for the team … and to you STILL a joke to be starting, then well, apparently it’s a joke that you are watching basketball.
I go to every home game and went to Indy yesterday.
Against High Point, Smith was great but sometimes you need an offensive playmaker in the game. I mentioned the Miami game and you brought the stats up but failed to mention the times that the lead was cut in second half and CMP inserted the johnsons to stop the run and we ended up winning the game. In the games versus X and Butler, Painter failed to insert a johnson for smith and they ran off points and won the game versus. I’m not trying to trash smith and never said he was garbage but yesterday when lew jack was hounded, we needed a guy who could make his own shot and smith can not do that. I think smith is an excellent role player but to count on him to be a top two player would be a mistake and we would not go very far in the tournament or big 10 play. Kramer was able to make his own shot we never relied on him to be the star. Barlow plays the Kramer role a little bit better than Smith and we need someone to play the e’twaan role and i think we would be better suited with one of the johnsons. Just because somebody does not agree with your high opinion of Ryne Smith, it does not mean that they don’t watch basketball
To clarify
you brought the stats up but failed to mention the times that the lead was cut in second half
I did mention that of the 7 times Ryne is in the game, three times we expand the lead, three times the lead was cut, and one was even. Overall, he is +3 for the game.
I think smith is an excellent role player but to count on him to be a top two player would be a mistake
I do not disagree. I’ve said it many times, ideally, Smith should be like the third option like he was behind JJ and Smooge, and use him to punish defense for double-teaming on our main weapons.
Just because somebody does not agree with your high opinion of Ryne Smith, it does not mean that they don’t watch basketball
You can look at my archive, during the pre-season I actually predicted a regress year for Smith, since he no longer has JJ and Smooge to draw the defense to give him wide-open look. I also predicted one of the Johnsons to be the starter by the end of the season. Obviously I was wrong.
I won’t defend Smith so strongly if not b/c you calling him a joke as a starter when he has really contributed a lot. Is it Smith’s fault to be working his butt off and overachieving, or should you really blame the Johnson boys to be underachieving (TJ on FT, AJ on D) and not able to take over Smith’s starting gig?
I agree that TJ/AJ can be a much better option than Smith b/c they can create his own shot and is more athletic (look at AJ’s rebound-dunk in the Western Carolina game). I am such a big AJ fan that I think he can be all B1G before his career is over here. So I ain’t disagreeing with you here.
But note that “creating your own shot” is a one-on-one concept. It is useful, and obviously I prefer our players can do that, but in Painter’s motion offense system, it’s always about TEAM play, and that means a lot of setting screens for teammates, getting open and taking quality shots. That’s why CMP pays attention to things like how many of our shots are assisted (vs. just one-on-one play). In that regards, Smith has done as good a job as any on the team (except Robbie). I’d just hope that you can give our player some baseline respect.
Blake Hoffarber couldn't "create his own shot" either.
He slaughtered the Big Ten for about 3 years that way just running off screens, etc. “Creating your own shot” is one of the most overrated skills in the game, IMO. If your passing and motion is good, you don’t need to, and motion-created shots are almost always better/easier than 1-on-5 self-created shots.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Dec 19, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Ryne
I disagree completely and question whether you even watch the games. Ryne does ok on defense. Makes some solid plays (like the strip on Nored at the end) and gets beat a few times and makes silly fouls. But he has become one of the best shooters in the B10, with out a doubt. We would have never separated from Butler like we did without him. THIS is not an area of concern, not sure why you even bring it up.
Speaking of recruiting...
With Hammons, do you think Painter is going to utilize him on the offensive side?
As in feed him and let him do his thing, ex – Sullinger
As I said on Twitter
We can really only do two things: Piss and moan about it or move on and get better. It’s up tot he players to choose.
A futile crusade to prevent mass ignorance
HammerAndRails, SBNation's Boilermaker Blog
Alabma getting
pile-driven by an unranked Kansas St right now. Alabama may well fall out of the Top 25…making that loss not such a great loss any longer. Beyond that, the SEC sucks serious balls.
Are we expecting too much this year?
We just graduated 2 NBA draft picks who will not be quickly replaced, and 2 of our 3 seniors are nicked up. It’s an ugly question, but shouldn’t this be a rebuilding year?
I think it's reasonable to expect any team that builds a double-digit lead to hold it.
This team IS capable of being good. But they lack mental toughness, so any time they get a shot in the mouth, they fold. It traces back to Kramer being so damn good as a leader that no one else needed to, and no one else has because they got used to not needing to. See VCU, @OSU last year, Wisconsin’s comeback last year, the big Bama run, and now this. No one gets tough when the going gets tough.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Dec 18, 2011 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
I was driving home at the time
I had the fortune of hearing the first half until I got out of range of the Purdue Sports Network radio. They looked like the best team in the country in that half.
When I heard the final score, I was livid.
I expected this type of inconsistency from our football team, but from our basketball team?! Who let Danny Hope into the locker room at half time?
Reaction images? I got 'em
Senior All-American Alto Sax
I admire Smith
He has serious white man’s disease, and last year (especially the year before last) he was out of his league.
He cam around towards the end of last season and his D definitely improved.
Streaky shooter- but when he drains one- really fires up the team.
No reason to call him garbage (see comments above). At least he has passion and shows it.
The problem
I agree, it comes down to recruiting. We’ve had 4 sucky classes in a row. The only good players from those classes are the 2 Johnsons and Lawson. Face it, the rest suck (Barlow is borderline). You can’t bring in 3 good players in 4 years and expect to be successful.
Also, Iona got blown out by Marshall (read, MARSHALL) by 20 pts last week. You may want to question that win as well.
No doubt
The recruiting from 08-11 was one big miss after another, and that falls entirely on the Painter and the rest of the staff.
Fortunately he seems to have finally found his footing and turned the corner with the ’12 and ’13 classes. Part of the benefit of that comes from the fact that the talent pool is VERY deep within the state for those two classes.
I have concerns about recruiting as well.
But LewJack and Ryne at least would like a word with you.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Dec 18, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Ryne has his moments
Lew Jack has developed very nicely, though he seems to be injured almost every game. Other than that, he has a point. Lawson and the two Johnsons are the only ones I see being all-conference level players in the future.
Like I state last year at season's end
(And for which I was tabbed as a “negative Nancy” by some ( lol ) I though we all pretty much expected a fairly rocky year this year. We have ZERO interior presence and streaky outside shooting. We ALL should have known this and expected to see inconsistency as the young guys were inserted in and out of the lineup to gain some experience and so that Matt can figure out some strengths and weaknesses.
Anyone who expected a B1G championship and a Final Four berth this year has some of the best crack available to any consumer, because it’s fantasy-ville. However, we haven’t done THAT badly IMO. We’ve had two exceptional games go down the drain late (Xavier and Butler) where we’ve showed the potential to hang with some tough teams. The Alabama game, at the very least, showed that we can battle back against a superior athletic team and make a run.
This year, unfortunately for Rob and LewJack, is all about reinforcing some of the recent foundation being laid by Coach P with his latest additions, and those on the way. Our best hope is a run at the B1G post-regular season tournament title, and to make the dance and do some damage to teams thinking they have a shot at a Final Four appearance.
2013 and 14 are the years we should expect some great things…anything before that is just the left-over icing in the bowl that Mom lets you lap up after she’s finished coating the cake.
BTFU !!
This is disappointing but not totally unexpected.
If you recall, right after our season ended last year, the first 2011 conf. predictions came out and Bleacher report had the Boilers 9th in B1G. Based on Painter alone, I thought this was too low but it seems that this objective opinion was a lot closer than we would care to admit. Here’s what I’ve seen. I think Hummel needs to just play and not worry about being the number one scoring option. To me, he is more effective as a facilitator at times. Lewjack is not healthy. He’s gutting it out but is wearing down at the end of games. Sadly, it looks like he will have to battle this all year. And, as a lot of you have indicated, 4 straight years of sub par recruiting classes, is becoming apparent. I think the best time to be a fan of a program is right when you can see something special developing. Where they surprise you with their play and you know there are even better times ahead. Kinda like we were in 2007 and IU is now. Conversely, the toughest time to be a fan is when you can see a dip coming. Well, time to really get behind these guys because they need us now more than ever. No matter what, let’s send these seniors out knowing what they meant to us. Better times are coming but we are going to have to show some patience.
by Hummel's figurines on Dec 18, 2011 11:17 AM EST reply actions
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