Trust Painter
by Boiler17 on Nov 10, 2011 5:47 AM EST
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PrintI know a lot of people were stung by the Gary Harris decision and that has caused some pessimism and animosity to rear its ugly head these last few hours. Instead of being upset let’s move forward, because we have a lot to be excited about.
First, the guys that just signed LOI’s, yesterday, will end up being a top 25 class. This group brings a lot of good attributes to our team, especially size. I know people question the work ethics of both Hammons and Simpson, but I think they both realize that Painter can help them become complete players and they are ready to work. I’ve never seen Davis play, but everything I’ve read and heard about him has me extremely excited. He seems like a smart player that buys into our system, and loves defense. I think he’s extremely underrated, maybe because he chose Purdue so early, and a pure scorer. I’m also thrilled to get RJ to take over the point guard duties, especially since his brother is on the team. Pair them with the 3 guys Painter has in the 2013 class and they are by far the best 7 players Painter has gotten over a 2 year period. These guys are a very solid core and probably the best group Purdue has seen in quite a while.
I know a lot of people are upset, but I don’t understand why we are questioning Painter’s recruiting skills. He is still extremely young, in the coaching world, and I think he is learning a lot about the recruiting process. Going up against MSU right now is no small task, especially since Izzo has been around so long and won a lot. Izzo had the Flintstones early in his career and he took them to a championship; which of course upped his profile. Painter had a similar group in the ‘Baby Boilers’, but a transfer and 2 injuries derailed that group, and unfortunately not making a deep run probably set recruiting back. If we would have made one Final Four during the last 2 years, I bet we get at least one of Dawson or Harris. Unfortunately that didn’t happen, but I’m very confident in that changing, within the next few years. And once that happens I think Painter will be ready to capitalize.
Lastly I think the new facilities at Mackey, the new recruiting budget, and the coaches increased salaries will make a big difference moving forward. I don’t think a lot of us understood the difficulties Painter faced on the recruiting front until Paintergate this spring. Painter has now been given a more competitive recruiting budget and I’m sure we will see this pay dividends down the road.
For now let’s be excited that we got a great coach, who will probably be around a long time, a very good group of new recruits and a team that will most likely be in contention for the BigTen title. Boiler Up!
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Nice write up
Couldn’t agree more, I wanted Harris as much as anyone but just because we didn’t get him shouldn’t obscure the fact that Painter has done a very good job with the 2012 and 2013 classes. We have a renovated arena, an increased recruiting budget and a great coach. It’s a great time to be a Purdue fan.
Time to Move Forward...
well said. Comments about the 2012 class are that when all is said and done their current ranking will likely be undervalued. Painter has been exceptional in putting the pieces together for a very strong program year in and year out. Like all the rest before him, Gary Harris will soon be forgotten in the dustbin of Purdue basketball.
Star Rankings are only for high school players...
They are college players now, so throw the stars OUT! New game, baby! BOILER UP!
Boiler Up! Hammer Down!
by JuJuan some Moore? on Nov 10, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
Good call
I have more faith in Painter than I’ve had in any coach. I remember a few years ago he said he didn’t bother going after recruits he didn’t feel like we had a chance getting. I don’t think that’s changed, but I love the fact that he is now pursuing guys like Dawson, Harris, Willis, etc. He even got on the McGary wagon for a bit, as well as some other high recruits. He doesn’t just throw our name in the hats of every 5-star like some coaches, but the players he wants, no matter their ‘ranking’, he feels we have a legitimate shot at getting, which says a lot about where our program is now.
My take
1. Agree that we should focus on what we have (Painter and a pretty good 2012/13 class) instead of what we don’t have.
2. Disagree that Painter is “extremely” young in the coaching world. Brad Stevens is “extremely” young. Painter is only 2 yrs younger than Sean Miller, and Miller already had a fantastic recruiting class two yrs ago (with Derrick Williams not even the best player), and follows up again with arguably the #1 class in 2012 (according to Scouts).
3. I have all the faith in Painter in getting the most out of the players. He coaches effort, which is what I love about him and the Purdue system. He preaches all the important old school values like hustle, team work, defense. I love him and praise him for it. He’s my favorite coach.
4. But we can’t sugarcoat it and it doesn’t mean he couldn’t learn a thing or two about recruiting. I am not saying that he is “wrong”, but don’t you think that there is sth to improve here? You can’t just say “He cuts his losses quick and moves on” when we were going the distance on T. Zeller, Dawson, and Harris and lost, always the bridesmaid. You can’t just say, “These players aren’t a fit for Purdue afterall” b/c these are the guys Painter went hard after. These are in-state kids. These are guys he went after early (Dawson), or that has a strong Purdue ties (Harris).
5. Again, not saying Painter was wrong or bad. I think he’s a straight, no-nonsense, honest guy and I love him for it. I am not asking him to change. I think it’s important to stick to his values. Be honest and up front with the recruits about what to expect. It’s always about finding a right match rather than finding the prettiest girl. Yet still, is there sth he can learn from Izzo, where he can be a lot more persuasive and attractive while remaining true to his values and what he stands for? I bet there is.
6. My point is not to be harsh on Painter, but we need to stop making up excuses for him and admit that there’s a lot that he can learn and improve. We lost on the guys we went all out for, year in and year out. Until we admit our short-coming, we are not gonna improve in this area. Painter demands and gets elite-level salary, facilities and resources, and I think it is fair that we also demand elite-level result from him.
7. Agree that we should move on, and focus on developing the players that we have. Remember though, part of moving on is to learn from your previous mistake/failures and make improvement, otherwise you are forever stuck by the same systemic failure.
8. Now, let’s get back to this year’s team!
Good Points
1. I say Painter is young because I envision him as Purdue’s coach for the next 15 to 20 years. So I think after he continues to prove himself as a coach, and makes a Final Four, he will take Purdue to the next level. Miller has a large advantage over Painter because Arizona is seen as a top tier program, that’s the second best program on the west coast.
2. We need to be proud of the way Painter handled this recruitment. Crean went to see GH during the non-contact period, and MSU players spoke openly to reporters about GH, and both of those schools committed secondary violations. Painter on the other hand followed all the rules, and kept our players in line and made sure they didn’t talk about unsigned recruits. I mean Terone wouldn’t even comment on his own brothers verbal! Props to the compliance department too!
3. I agree that Painter needs to be learning from these recruitments and I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt.
4. Can we really be surprised about losing Zeller to UNC and Dawson/Harris to MSU? Both of those schools have been to Final Fours recently and have coaches who have been around much longer than Painter.
5. I do think we need to demand elite-level talent from Painter, especially after he forced the AD to up our profile about 7 months ago. But I think he needs more time, especially after the way the last 2 seasons were affected by unfortunate injuries.
6. I’m sick and tired of people complaining about Painter’s tournament results. Painter has lost exactly once, out of 5 years, to a lower seeded team. And in ’07 and ’09 we were able to pull off upsets, not to mention making the Sweet 16 in ’10 after we were predicted to lose to Sienna. How far would Butler have gone if Howard missed the last 2 tournaments?
6 is important
Something we criticize aOSU all the time about is a problem we have had as well. Depth. We had Hummel, Moore, and JJ. Those were the only real consistent offensive players we had. We may go 10 deep on the roster, but only a small handful could play at a highly competitive level. We are starting to fill up the roster now with legitimate talent. The 2012 and 2013 classes will go a long way in this regard.
Also, four of Painter’s five losses have been to final four teams. Two of those teams ended up being national champions. Xavier, the one team who didn’t go to a final four, went to the Elite Eight. And besides VCU, we played every one of those teams tough.
Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw
Considering we’ve lost to an eventual Final Four team every year but once.
Still grinds my gears that MSU made the Final Four in 2010 when, I thought, we showed to be a vastly superior team to when Rob was healthy. They barely slip by New Mexico State and Maryland, get a gift from Kansas, beat a Tenn team that we already beat at a neutral site that year…and we get Duke, who not only had our #1 seed, but were just too much for us without Rob.
Matt Painter sold me on his ability in 2007 when he took that team to the final minutes against that stacked Florida team. He’s eventually going to get us to the top. Just how about a little help from lady luck?
by Bear with White Sox and a Hammer on Nov 12, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
that Florida game was incredible. Purdue was the ONLY team that year that even challenged them in the tournament.
Would have made for a better NC game than that turd that Ohio State laid.
that was also the weekend that Chris Kramer got a bucket from his knees. can’t remember whether that was the Arizona or Florida game though.
To your call once more we rally....
by BoilerPaulie on Nov 17, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Butler challenged them in the Sweet 16
I think they were within about 5 in the final minutes
A futile crusade to prevent mass ignorance
HammerAndRails, SBNation's Boilermaker Blog
Winning ...duh
Winning in the tournament (final 4) solves a lot of issues. Keep developing kids for the next level..If you do those 2 things, then it’s a domino effect. If you don’t, it will be used against you by other schools who are recruiting you.
How important is a FF for recruiting?
1. Maryland won a NC in 2002 but I don’t necessarily see them getting a lot better recruit to compete with the Dukes/UNCs in the ACC
2. George Mason went to FF in 2006 and Butler getting to two NC games, yet they still have to land their first 5*
Look, I’m not disagreeing with you that winning is the ultimate factor. Everyone wants to be associated with a winner and action (winning) speaks louder than any words (sales pitch). And yes, definitely continue to develop young players. The optimistc side of me thinks that AJ (with a year sitting next to Hummel) can just be as good as a 5* coming in, and Hale has the potential to be the second-coming of Brian Cardinal (if you compare them, they both show that they REALLY wanna come to Purdue; they both sit out a year after high school; they both have great motor; they can both shoot from the outside).
But I think in recruiting, an equally important point to winning is the PERCEPTION of being a winner. Look at MSU. Even in a down year like last season, everyone still expects them to be dangerous, and that’s the perception of a winner. The same can be said for Duke or UNC. On the other end of the spectrum is schools like Purdue, where our alum QBs have the most passing yards in the NFL but aside for Purdue fans, everyone’s first guess is always ND. That’s what I am talking about. Sometimes it is not necessarily just the fact, but how the fact is perceived.
And to be perceived as a winner, not only do we need to start winning, but we need to drop anay losers’ mentality. We have to be convinced and exude a confidence that we are as good as any program in the country. Our players are not measured by the stars they got as a high school recruit, but on how well they bond and play together as a team. We may not be most talented team, but we are damn sure we are the hardest-working team you’ll find. That is our identity; that is our edge; that is our selling point to every high school kid.
That is Why....
the loss to VCU stings so much because that was an opportunity lost to feed the perception of a winner…
by ZoKnowsDefense on Nov 10, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
It was an opportunity lost to be a winner.
Look, Painter has done a good job. We’re have good basketball program again, but the fact of the matter is, we don’t have exceptional results yet. One shared Big Ten title, one BTT title (something I don’t really hold with that much regard), and one Sweet Sixteen.
by Ray Williams? on Nov 10, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Give us Barlow and Hummel and we win that plus more
Can’t blame him for either of those not being in the VCU game, and I actually commend him for Barlow not being in it. Not calling him blameless in that loss, but the players on the floor are really the ones that lost that game.
"The players lost the game."
That’s silly. They are his players that he recruited, coached, and mentored. Nothing that happens on the court with his team is not his responsibility.
by Ray Williams? on Nov 10, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
He also can't go out there and play the game for them
If the players are having an off day, or don’t listen to the coach, then there’s only so much he can do. Not to go back and point fingers at the VCU game specifically, but in general its a TEAM, and that includes the coaches.
On the other hand, teams can win in spite of the coaches’ best (worst) efforts. (See any win our football team has had this year.)
BTFU!
The are his hand picked players. It was his strategy. How they play reflects on him. If his players play poorly in one game, it’s still his responsibility. It’s not an act of god.
by Ray Williams? on Nov 10, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Well
I applaud Painter for sticking to his values and suspend Barlow, even when it is not the convenient thing to do. Hopefully, it’ll pay off this year and next if Barlow matures.
However, we can’t just hang that game on not having Barlow and Hummel. We weren’t even anywhere close! If we were at least competitive (e.g. against Duke in 2010 SS), I’d have agreed with you. But the fact is we have no solution to their full-court press, and that should have been sth we prepared (given VCU played an extra game).
Having said that, Bill Self has even less excuse given his team’s talent and the time he has to prepare.
Coaches Deserve Blame
whoever was responsible for scouting and game prepping for VCU did a horrible job. Little is said about Painter’s innate ability to game adjust, particularly game prep and coming out of the half. VCU was an aberration from that and unfortunately an untimely one.
by ZoKnowsDefense on Nov 10, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
VCU Game
If you’ll remember one of Painter’s quotes about the VCU game was that during timeouts he laid out (I’m ad-libbing here) how to stop the play that VCU offense repeatedly ran against us and scored time and time again. But the Boilers just didn’t execute defensively and stop them. I do believe that Barlow would have been a 10+ point difference maker from a defensive standpoint as well as bring much needed energy (I travelled 2000 miles to go to the game and was very let down by the energy level of the players and PU fans but those VCU fans were rowdy and awesome) that would have kept us right in that game.
My point being that Painter’s coaching put the players in an excellent position to succeed, but we just didn’t make the shots or end up in the correct position like he had taught them to do all season long. Of course it didn’t help that VCU shooters just went apeshit. I felt that we were in position early but etwaun’s shots just wouldn’t fall and we needed more defensive tenacity (enter Barlow) to pull it all off.
It Doesn't Guarantee Anything
A FF doesn’t guarentee you success in the future, but I think it’s important for most 5 star recruits who want a national stage. I’d love to know how G Rob ended up at Purdue. That was a great snag, but he was a Prop 48 kid, I wonder if we’d even mess with a Prop 48 kid today. I thought the whole reason we got off McGary was because of grades. I think MP is going to recuit good kids that are good students and good citizens. I think that’s great. Maybe we can get a group to gel and make a run in the FF, but it’s going to be more difficult for us to consistently attract 4-5 star talent. We need some great PR, and a run to the FF or a NC would help us tremendously, but it wont’ guarentee anything in the future.
If it's about the national stage...
then I think one thing we can also do is to play more against the BCS schools in Nov/Dec. Look at MSU, playing UNC and Duke. Even IU plays UK. We need to do more of those AND WIN.
Right On
…and then beat them. We had our chances against Duke, and then we get laid out and make you feel like you’re a 2nd tier program. You’ve got to give Izzo props… he has bad seasons and makes it to the FF. But you are right, quit playing Northern Illinois. Also, if we’re going to play in Chicago like we do, let’s get some big Chicagoland recruits. I’d like to get the best from IN. but I’d like to feel like we could attract a blue chip from the other 49 states. And if we’re going to go international, let’s get the really good ones. All we’re trying to do is to get 20 wins, I guess and make the tourney.
Anthony Johnson and Kendall Stephens
Both from the chicago area and AJ was the leader of a Whitney Young team a chicago powerhouse with tons of recruits on it.
by jack'sIUdisdain on Nov 10, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely
If you want to be the best, you have to beat the best.
"There's no hope until Hope is gone!"
Another Thing...
Calipari has everyone who’s ever played for Ky. in Lexington all summer playing with recruits and having all star games. It generates a lot of PR. It’s great Brian Cardinal’s back, but why can’t we get Brad Miller, Landry, JBC, Rick Mount, the 3 amigos and so forth back from time to time and leverage the great history we have. Purdue doesn’t know how to market themselves for sports and if you can’t do that, great players are going to be hard to get. I can’t believe a double legacy doesn’t come to PU, I dont’ understand how you lose that. That said, I think we’ve got some great recruits this year and I’d take this quality of class every year. I’m ready for basketball after suffering through football.
One Thing to add
I live in Houston, TX and go to the alumni watch parties etc. and one thing ive always noticed about A LOT of older purdue fans is an overall sense of pessimism. I recall that pessimism existed at football games when I went there as well. That may not exist as much on this website due to the audience reading it (which may be slanted towards a younger generation). I think a more positive fan base would go a long way.
Look at IU, theyve been in the shitter in basketball for a long time now, but somehow their fans are ALWAYS optimistic. Yes a lot of it is homerism; but they do a better job selling/controlling the PR/Image of their school. I think a more positive attitude from the “old” people would help.
The old people
Are the ones who tell you to sit down at games and complain to the ushers that you are cheering too loud. Purdue games are overflowing with people like that from my experience. That problem is created by the Athletic Dept. and Administration because they do things like give the big JPC donors the best seats behind the bench and split up the Paint Crew so they can squeeze in more luxury seats for people to sit in.
It’s a testament to the students that Mackey is such a hard place for opposing teams to play in because the Administration sure isn’t helping.
Boiler Up. Hammer Down.
by Boilerfan1234 on Nov 10, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
I hate to say it
But that’s because they’ve tasted National Championships before. So naturally, they want to restore what they had. We’re still trying to get there.
by Bloomington.Boiler on Nov 10, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
I Agree Completely - But We Need A New AD
I go to the Purdue Alumni functions where I live, and it’s all run by a bunch of blue hair people that probably donate a lot of money to the school and are well meaning, but it’s like hanging out at your grandparents house, everyone’s polite, but it’s not much fun. Not a lot of energy is generated. They get just as excited about the glee club as they do the football games and it just doesn’t connect with young people. Purdue is almost non-existent from a fan base in the southern part of the state, and there’s even an extension in the area. U of L is more popular in the southern part of the state than Purdue. They do absolutely no marketing. But winning can create a whole lot of publicity. We simply have to win something significant to change the fan base’s attitude. If you could see what Tom Jurich has done for Louisville sports, it’s incredible. You’d see that the biggest change PU could make is with it’s AD and someone who understands what it takes to have great facilities and winning programs. Come visit the YUM center in Louisville, where the alcohol is free flowing and the fan base is rabid. For a college kid it’s like playing in the NBA. Hire a new AD to change the direction of the sports program. Make Football as much as a priortity as Basketball has now become. We need new blood in the AD spot.
WINNING
Yes, thats the answer. the key to building a winning program is alcohol. Lets get Charlie Sheen as AD, throw in some hookers and let the winning commence. At the very least he could be an excellent marketing guru for us.
I’m sure he’d make the JPC meetings fun too.
I’m just kidding Burke, no matter how much you get harped on for Hope, you still orchestrated bringing PU top notch facilities, transitioned new football and basketball coaches into the program in a classy manner, and run a clean program/athletic department. But the football team is unranked so apparently you gotta go. Cmon. Be grateful all ya’ll fans!
Excuse me...
I take it you don’t drink, or had a bad experience with alcohol. Some adults do enjoy a beverage responsibly. Go to a U of L game and you’ll see what marketing a sports program is all about. Burke’s old school. MP had to paint (no pun intended) him in a corner to get him to commit to the BBall program. My guess is that won’t happen with Football. Maybe the next coach will be from Western Kentucky.
Did anyone read this from last month?
According to this article, Derek Willis’ coach said that Purdue is still at the top of his list. While we shouldn’t be throwing our emotions towards another top notch recruit just yet, Painter is showing he still has a chance to add a big-time recruit to an already stellar 2013 class.
I really don't get it...
So we don’t get Gary Harris, and now everyone is ready to throw painter under the bus?!
What, do you not think that Painter also wants to win championships? He’s starting to put the peices together, but its going to take time. Let’s not forget that if it weren’t for some freak injuries, we might be there already.
The crop of talent coming in over the next couple years is very solid, and unlike when the baby boilers came in, there’s going to be some solid experience ahead of them as well.
I, for one trust Painter fully, since he knows Purdue basketball better than anyone – he lives it 24-7.
BTFU!
by BoilerAdam on Nov 11, 2011 4:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Dumb. Idiotic.
Those are the words that come to mind when I think of reactions on this site about the Harris decision. It’s effing ridiculous.
by Jackson Brunner on Nov 11, 2011 4:36 PM EST reply actions
Especially from some "new" contributors
People that were content to just observe up to this point, but feel that now is the time to chime in with their doom and gloom outlook.
BTFU!
by BoilerAdam on Nov 11, 2011 4:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It's too early.
It is to early to get down on Painter for not being able to take recruits from coaches with better resumes at programs that frankly have been better historicaly. I am still behind him 100% right now. However, if the Dawsons and the Harrises of the world start piling up, then there may be something that needs to be looked at, but that is a conversation that should not even be thought about for years.
by OldSchoolStyle on Nov 13, 2011 10:22 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
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